Divine Challenge - Radiant Damage?

[Malachi Drake]

Hello,

I was hoping someone could help me out with a question about the Paladin Divine Challenge skill. As far as I can tell there is no errata for this power and I cannot find any information on this specific question. If someone could point me in the right direction or answer that would be great.

The Divine Challenge skill always seemed straightforward to me until someone brought up a question about the Radiant damage element of the mark.

The part that is in question is a line in the effect part of Divine Challenge that reads:

“While a target is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as a target. Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target before the start of your next turn.

Their understanding is that the clause “before the start of your next turn” means that the radiant damage component of the mark is only applicable during the round that it is used. This would mean that if a Paladin used Divine Challenge on a target, and then remained engaged with the target, only the -2 attack penalty would persist but the damage would no longer be applied to the first triggering attack each round.

Since you cannot use Divine Challenge consecutively on the same target this would mean that when fighting a single solo brute the Paladin would be next to useless as a defender because a -2 penalty is not going to stop the target from swatting the soft party members. So the Paladin would have to use Divine Challenge, shift out on the next turn to lose the mark, wait a turn for failing to engage or remark, and then move back in every 4th turn just to do potentially 7-10 damage.

By separating the radiant damage from the -2 mark it also seems to create other problems. If the radiant damage is not part of the mark then a Paladins radiant damage would not be overridden by a fighter’s mark which means that a target will be forced to take damage from either the fighter or the paladin or even both each round.

The above reading renders the Paladin a useless defender and allows for massive exploitation when paired with another defender.

It seems to me that this is not the intent of the skill and this is not my understanding of the power.

RAW it seems to me that the mark is the -2 penalty and radiant damage; they are both part of the mark’s effect. I believe that the “before the start of your next turn” clause is there to clarify that the radiant damage is applied on the first triggering attack from the end of your current go until the start of your next turn. If the phrase was removed it would read as “Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target” which could lead to misinterpretation.

So, my understanding is that Divine Challenge marks the target, the mark applies a -2 penalty and radiant damage on the first triggering attack and only the -2 penalty on the subsequent ones that round. At the start of your next turn, if you are still engaging the challenged target the mark persists and the mark applies a -2 penalty and radiant damage on the first triggering attack and only the -2 penalty on the subsequent ones that round. Rinse and repeat.

I think the power may be phrased poorly but I also believed that its radiant damage effects were the same as Divine Sanction which states that the radiant damage is applied once each round.

So... thanks in advance for helping.

 

[FireLance]

Yes, I agree that the power could be worded more clearly, perhaps similar to how it is phrased for Divine Sanction.

 

[Malachi Drake]

So you would agree that the intent of the power is for the radiant damage to be applied once per turn, that the conditions kick in, while the mark is active?

Thank you for replying!

 

[FireLance]

So you would agree that the intent of the power is for the radiant damage to be applied once per turn, that the conditions kick in, while the mark is active?

I think that's the intent, although I can't confirm that since I'm not a designer. That's the way my group has always played it, though.

 

[the Jester]

So you would agree that the intent of the power is for the radiant damage to be applied once per turn, that the conditions kick in, while the mark is active?

Absolutely!

To me the intent is clear.

 

[eamon]

I agree with the Jester and FireLance.

To anyone else that finds Divine Challenge hopelessly complex, I suggest they say so on the 4e errata boards:
Divine Challenge still confuses many players and should be errata'd

The 4e designers apparently do read those boards, so perhaps we can convince them that a simpler phrasing would truly be appreciated.

 

[Lord Byron]

Throw me in with the group that thinks the damage should apply once per round as long as it's marked, like divine sanction. That's how I've always played it, anyway.

I never realized Divine Challenge had so many problems until recently. That whole "do I have to engage when I switch my challenge target?" thing mentioned in that errata post is confusing also.

 

[Starfox]

First, let me say I agree on the reading proposed here.

As an ancillary confusion, which parts of a mark does the bard power Misdirected Mark apply? Depending on how it is read, this power works very differently when applied to a Fighter, Paladin, Swordmage, or Warden - basically it works great with the fighter and barely at all with the other defenders if mark is all you do. But if the ancillary effect of marks are included, it suddenly becomes quite powerful when applied to non-fighter defenders.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

First, let me say I agree on the reading proposed here.

As an ancillary confusion, which parts of a mark does the bard power Misdirected Mark apply? Depending on how it is read, this power works very differently when applied to a Fighter, Paladin, Swordmage, or Warden - basically it works great with the fighter and barely at all with the other defenders if mark is all you do. But if the ancillary effect of marks are included, it suddenly becomes quite powerful when applied to non-fighter defenders.

It works differently for them because their defender abilities work differently. It's definitely awesome for Fighters and less useful for the rest. A mark is just a mark. Some classes have additional abilities that also mark. Some classes have abilities that are triggered or otherwise affected by marks.

 

[Starfox]

But didn't this thread just arrive at the conclusion that radiant damage is an inherent part of the paladin's mark?