Divine Challenge: Switching targets means you don't have to engage?

[eamon]

The sentence after that says "if none of these events occur". Some people are interpreting that statement to mean the two choices provided for engagement. But the statement could as easily be interpreted as the two choices you are originally given, engage your challenged target, or challenge a new target. Considering the second sentence is designed to clarify what one of your two choices are, I think the final sentence is referring to your choice....and not solely to engagement.

The power does say you must either engage or open a new box as you put it. You're right in that it is that choice that you must make or suffer the consequences. However, you unfortunately can't avoid the consequences entirely by "opening a new box" because that new box comes with the same instructions! You did what the instructions on the old box told you and won't be punished, but now you opened a new box and these instructions again say that you must either engage or "open a new box". Again you're faced with a choice - but now you can no longer "open a new box" because you can only do so once a round.

If at the end of your turn you have not engaged the last target of your divine challenge power, then, since it is the last target, you have also not "opened a different box" - by definition. Thus, you have both failed to engage (by assumption) and failed to opened a new box (by necessity) and will suffer the consequences of the instruction on the last box.

You can't escape the engage clause by running to a new box because each new box contains the same requirement to find another box or engage. No matter where you turn, you must open a new box or engage - and you can't open new boxes indefinitely.

So, in practice, at the end of your turn, you must have engaged the enemy that you are currently challenging or suffer the (only mildly annoying) consequences.

 

[keterys]

By RAW, you clearly need to engage the target of your (second, third, whatever) divine challenge. It's an interesting interpretation to allow it to work otherwise, but not one that is healthy for the game or logical, despite being able to make it sound good with flavor text.

I'd suggest going for some divine sanction good-ness to get that multi-marking settled out, since divine challenge is not that way.

 

[Stalker0]

First off, thanks to everyone for a nice calm rationale debate...this has been a lot of fun.

I will argue a couple more points.

If the rules text resets with everyone use of challenge, then I would argue that there is no purpose in the clause "Engage your challenged target or challenge a new target".


If whenever I challenge a target I must engage him, then the text could simply read "You must engage the target you challenged.".

If I change targets with the power, and the text resets as many are arguing, then the idea of changing your target is absolutely meaningless as I must always engage. There is no choice at all, so why is one presented?



Second, there can be some argument that effects of the first use of the power could effect the second use. Here is one made up example.

Let us say I had two encounter powers that did the following:

Target: One creature. Special: You receive an additional +2 to hit with this power if you have Combat Advantage. Hit: The target is stunned.


With the first use of the power I don't have combat advantage, I take the creature and stun him. Now I use an action point and use the power again. I now have combat advantage, and get an additional +2 to hit with the power. The effects of the first power have changed the effects of the second power.


Divine Challenge says "On your turn, the following must happen.". On your turn can be interpreted to mean at any point during that turn. Beginning, middle, end, etc.


The text says that on your turn one of two things must happen. I must engage a challenged enemy or challenge a new target. When I use the power to change target, I meet that criteria. Even if I reset the instructions and read the power again, I still met the criteria that at some point on my turn I did challenge a new target.

It doesn't say with each new use of the power I have to do it, it just says that on my turn it has to happen.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

If I change targets with the power, and the text resets as many are arguing, then the idea of changing your target is absolutely meaningless as I must always engage. There is no choice at all, so why is one presented?

I'll have to think about it, but I'm not so sure it's necessary, since the second challenge immediately ends the first and frees you from the consequences of the first.

The text says that on your turn one of two things must happen. I must engage a challenged enemy or challenge a new target. When I use the power to change target, I meet that criteria. Even if I reset the instructions and read the power again, I still met the criteria that at some point on my turn I did challenge a new target.

I think it means a new target other than the one you currently targeted. It goes back to what "different target" refers to. If I DC Bob my first turn, then DC Joe on my second turn, I have to "engage Joe or a different target from Joe." Joe is not a different target from Joe, so Joe doesn't count for maintaining the DC on Joe.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'll disagree with you on this one hyp.

My main arguing point is that the power doesn't say "Open Box 1 or open Box 2".

It says "Engage Box 1 or Open Box 2".

The power says you must do one of two actions. I must engage a target, or challenge a different one. Its not the same thing. Engage has a specific meaning which is defined in the next sentence.

Right. In this analogy, "Engage Box 1" involves removing a pebble.

So my choice is to either Engage Box 1 or Open Box 2. No problem - I open Box 2.

But opening Box 2 presents me with a new pair of choices - I can either Engage Box 2, or Open Box 3 (or Box 1 again). And I must do one of those things before the end of the round. Except that opening another box is forbidden by the "only open one box each round" rule, so if I don't want to suffer the DC penalty, I must engage Box 2 before the end of the round.

Opening Box 2 doesn't count towards Box 2's choice of opening a different box. Challenging Target 2 doesn't count towards Target 2's choice of challenging a different target. That only satisfies the requirement of the initial challenge on Target 1.

Edit - oops, missed that there was a second page now!

If the rules text resets with everyone use of challenge, then I would argue that there is no purpose in the clause "Engage your challenged target or challenge a new target".

If whenever I challenge a target I must engage him, then the text could simply read "You must engage the target you challenged."

The rules text doesn't "reset". The rules text applies to each use of the power. It's different.

At the start of round 2, there is a Divine Challenge in play, on Target 1. Under your proposed revision, the rule would say "If you do not engage Target 1 before the end of the round, you suffer Consequences."

I challenge Target 2, ending the mark on Target 1, which imposes another requirement - "If you do not engage Target 2 before the end of the round, you suffer Consequences."

I engage Target 2, and so I don't suffer the Consequences for failing to meet the requirements of the challenge on Target 2. But I didn't engage Target 1, and even though Target 1 is no longer marked, the power that was in play at the start of the round gave me an ultimatum - engage target 1 before the end of the round or else - which I failed to meet. I suffer Consequences.

The existing rules text prevents this, because the act of challenging Target 2, in addition to removing the mark on Target 1, also satisfies the requirements of the existing challenge.

-Hyp.

 

[Kzach]

Has anyone considered that a minor action can occur at any stage during a turn?

So if the following sentence is true, "...you must engage the enemy you are currently challenging before the end of your turn..." then what happens if you use Divine Challenge as your last action in your turn?

 

[eamon]

First off, thanks to everyone for a nice calm rationale debate...this has been a lot of fun.

I will argue a couple more points.

If the rules text resets with everyone use of challenge, then I would argue that there is no purpose in the clause "Engage your challenged target or challenge a new target".

That clause is for subsequent rounds. In the first round, you cannot challenge a new target; but the rules apply to each round: and on subsequent rounds you do have the option to continue engaging your current target or to challenge a new target (which in turn you must engage).

Without the "or challenge a new target" clause, the rules specify a penalty if you fail to engage; they specify that the power ends when you challenge a different target - but they don't (clearly) specify that the penalty is avoided by when you challenge a new target.

I've advocated before on the 4e errata forum that this way of putting things is confusing and hard to grasp, but with the current set-up that clause is necessary for at least some semblance of clarity.

If whenever I challenge a target I must engage him, then the text could simply read "You must engage the target you challenged.".

If it said that, then you would need to engage the current target of the power. Using the power on another target would not release you from this requirement - at least not clearly. If they'd additionally noted something to the extent of "until the challenge has ended", it'd be sufficiently clear, and it would intuitively work the way you expect when overwritten by another mark or whatnot.

Second, there can be some argument that effects of the first use of the power could effect the second use. Here is one made up example.

Let us say I had two encounter powers that did the following:

Target: One creature. Special: You receive an additional +2 to hit with this power if you have Combat Advantage. Hit: The target is stunned.


With the first use of the power I don't have combat advantage, I take the creature and stun him. Now I use an action point and use the power again. I now have combat advantage, and get an additional +2 to hit with the power. The effects of the first power have changed the effects of the second power.

Divine Challenge says "On your turn, the following must happen.". On your turn can be interpreted to mean at any point during that turn. Beginning, middle, end, etc.
[...]

The consequences of one usage of a power can clearly impact a later usage of that power. However, these consequences are an explicit part of the text that is evaluated for every single usage of the power. Each usage of the power can be interpreted solely within the context of the current game situation.

So, for instance, in your example with an additional bonus for CA, the line "You receive an additional +2 to hit with this power if you have Combat Advantage" does not modify the power itself, it modifies the current usage. Just because you have CA now, for this usage, doesn't mean the power gains a +2bonus - just that single usage. When you use the power again next turn you don't get a +2 to hit some other target you don't have CA against.

Similarly for divine challenge. Yes, the text is much more confusing, but that shouldn't distract from the fact that any given usage is to be read solely within the context of the game as it is at the moment that that usage is performed. So when the game says that on your turn you must do something related to the target of divine challenge (impose a -2 penalty, smack em with radiant if they violate the mark, - oh, and engage or challenge someone else), you need to do that thing for any given usage of the power.

Every target gets the -2; every target gets radiant damage if they violate your mark; every target forces you to engage it or challenge someone else.

 

[keterys]

So if the following sentence is true, "...you must engage the enemy you are currently challenging before the end of your turn..." then what happens if you use Divine Challenge as your last action in your turn?

Then you hopefully challenged while adjacent to the enemy, so you counted as engaged.

 

[Kzach]

Then you hopefully challenged while adjacent to the enemy, so you counted as engaged.

And if you didn't?

That seems a bit silly that you can challenge a target at range at the end of your turn, and then lose the ability to DC because you didn't engage the target before the end of your turn.

 

[keterys]

Seems pretty sensical to me. Otherwise you could create the 'screwed if you do, screwed if you don't' situation that necessitated adding the engage restriction onto challenge.

Ie, where you had paladins doing silly things like _running away_ from creatures so their mark would trigger.

If you can't engage a target, you don't divine challenge. I play a paladin. It's fine.