Divine Challenge: Switching targets means you don't have to engage?

[Mahali]

For those that think you can DC a new target every round and never engage a target it may help to understand how DC came to include the engage part.

Prerelease DC did not have the "engage" requirement and in play testing one of the most effective tactics for a paladin was to challenge a target and run and hide.

It keeps a -2 to hit penalty on the target and deals damage when it attacks. The designers didn't feel like this is something a paladin should do, or even be able to do and they changed how DC works.

Threads regarding DC right after the game came out quotes the text and a designer response.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

I engage Target 2, and so I don't suffer the Consequences for failing to meet the requirements of the challenge on Target 2. But I didn't engage Target 1, and even though Target 1 is no longer marked, the power that was in play at the start of the round gave me an ultimatum - engage target 1 before the end of the round or else - which I failed to meet. I suffer Consequences.

If it said that, then you would need to engage the current target of the power. Using the power on another target would not release you from this requirement - at least not clearly. If they'd additionally noted something to the extent of "until the challenge has ended", it'd be sufficiently clear, and it would intuitively work the way you expect when overwritten by another mark or whatnot.

Okay, so both of these quotes have impressed upon me the necessity of "or challenge a different target." However, I do feel "While the target is marked by the power, you must engage the target" would have been clearer.

That seems a bit silly that you can challenge a target at range at the end of your turn, and then lose the ability to DC because you didn't engage the target before the end of your turn.

If you can't walk the walk, don't talk the talk.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... then what happens if you use Divine Challenge as your last action in your turn?

That's a Bad Idea if you aren't adjacent. It gains you nothing, and it loses you something.

-Hyp.

 

[Kraydak]

The third paragraph of Divine Challenge lists 3 possible events. Note the term "event".

a) Challenging someone different from your current challenge target
b) Attacking your current challenge target
c) Ending your turn adjacent to your challenge target

If *none* of these events occur by then end of your turn, then bad things happen. However, if I start my round with Orc A challenged, spend 1 move action wandering off into the distance, 1 standard action orating about how the Raven Queen is an angsty, pissant excuse for a deity and my minor action challenging Orc B (who isn't adjacent), then event A has occured before my turn ended. Nothing bad will happen. Unless the Raven Queen is feeling full of it, of course.

Because of the "event" terminology, we have a logical flag that starts at "false" at the beginning of the turn and can be flipped to true. Once it has been flipped to true, it can't be flipped back again (for that turn). The only possible weirdness available is whether you are allowed to access the end of your turn for event (c) before your turn ends (which is when the flag is checked). That would take a "walk-out" level DM (or a whole lot of alcohol and sleep deprivation) to take seriously.

 

[Kzach]

I am now more confused about Divine Challenge than I was before reading this thread. So for my own sanity, I'm going to ask for a vote on several scenarios. Just a yes or no will suffice as explanations just make my small brain cry and start singing Johnny Cash songs.

The question asked in all the scenarios below pertains to the penalty for not fulfilling the requirements of a Divine Challenge, i.e. you lose the ability for one turn.

1) Combat is raging. I have Divine Challenged an orc in the previous round who was five squares away. This round I went up and charged him. That ends my turn.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

2) Combat is raging. I have Divine Challenged an orc in the previous round who was five squares away. He came up and thwacked me. I thwacked him back. I rechallenge him. I end my turn.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

3) Combat is raging. I have Divine Challenged an orc in the previous round who is five squares away. This round, I charge him and then Divine Challenge someone else.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

4) Combat is raging. I have Divine Challenged an orc in the previous round who is five squares away. This round, I don't attack him but Divine Challenge him once more and end my turn still 5 squares away from him.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

5) Combat is raging. I have Divine Challenged an orc in the previous round who is five squares away. This round, I ignore him completely and then Divine Challenge someone else. I end my turn.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

6) Combat hasn't started. On my turn I Divine Challenge an orc and engage some other target, with the orc still five squares away when I end my turn.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

7) Combat hasn't started. On my turn I walk up to an orc, hit him and then Divine Challenge someone else and then end my turn.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

 

[Hypersmurf]

However, if I start my round with Orc A challenged, spend 1 move action wandering off into the distance, 1 standard action orating about how the Raven Queen is an angsty, pissant excuse for a deity and my minor action challenging Orc B (who isn't adjacent), then event A has occured before my turn ended. Nothing bad will happen.

At the start of your turn, one of three things must happen before the end of your turn:
A1: Challenge someone other than Orc A
A2: Attack Orc A
A3: End your turn adjacent to Orc A.

Once you Challenge Orc B, you have satisfied A1. But because you have just used the Divine Challenge power on Orc B, one of three things must happen before the end of your turn:
B1: Challenge someone other than Orc B
B2: Attack Orc B
B3: End your turn adjacent to Orc B.

Because of the "event" terminology, we have a logical flag that starts at "false" at the beginning of the turn and can be flipped to true. Once it has been flipped to true, it can't be flipped back again (for that turn).

That's right. You have satisfied the conditions of your challenge on Orc A, and that switch cannot be flipped back. However, the switch for the conditions of your challenge on Orc B begins at false, and you haven't done anything to flip that switch to true.

The requirement is to "challenge a different target". Different from what? From the target you are challenging... which, with your minor action at the end of this turn, is Orc B. And you haven't challenged a target different from Orc B before the end of your turn.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

There's an assumption that I've used in the first five scenarios, where you've said "I have Divine Challenged an orc in the previous round who is five squares away."

The assumption is that you have engaged that orc in the previous round - either you attacked him or were adjacent to him at the end of your last turn (meaning he's five squares away because on his turn, he moved away from you). Otherwise, you can't use Divine Challenge this round on anyone, because you failed the conditions last round, and have temporarily lost your Paladin Club Privileges.

1) Combat is raging. I have Divine Challenged an orc in the previous round who was five squares away. This round I went up and charged him. That ends my turn.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

Assuming you engaged him last round (with a ranged attack, presumably?), then you have also engaged him this round, and you don't lose DC.

If you didn't engage him last round, then you lost DC at the end of your last turn, so the scenario is nonsensical.

2) Combat is raging. I have Divine Challenged an orc in the previous round who was five squares away. He came up and thwacked me. I thwacked him back. I rechallenge him. I end my turn.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

Again, assuming you engaged him last round, then you have also engaged him this round. Why are you "rechallenging" him? The existing challenge is still in effect.

3) Combat is raging. I have Divine Challenged an orc in the previous round who is five squares away. This round, I charge him and then Divine Challenge someone else.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

Again assuming you engaged the initial target last round.

Are you spending an action point to challenge? Otherwise your turn ended when you completed your charge - you can't challenge after a charge without spending an AP. Let's say you are.

If you happen to be adjacent to the new target, you don't lose DC. If you aren't, then you have neither engaged the new target, nor challenged a different (to the new target) target; DC is lost.

4) Combat is raging. I have Divine Challenged an orc in the previous round who is five squares away. This round, I don't attack him but Divine Challenge him once more and end my turn still 5 squares away from him.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

Again, assuming you engaged him in the previous round... why are you Challenging him this round? You still have a challenge in effect on him. Regardless, you are neither engaging him nor challenging a different target; DC is lost.

5) Combat is raging. I have Divine Challenged an orc in the previous round who is five squares away. This round, I ignore him completely and then Divine Challenge someone else. I end my turn.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

Again assuming you engaged the original target last round. Yes, you lose Divine Challenge (unless your new target is adjacent to you). You are not fulfilling any of the requirements of the new challenge.

6) Combat hasn't started. On my turn I Divine Challenge an orc and engage some other target, with the orc still five squares away when I end my turn.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

Absolutely. You have not challenged a different target, nor attacked your target, or ended your turn adjacent to your target. Divine Challenge Fail.

7) Combat hasn't started. On my turn I walk up to an orc, hit him and then Divine Challenge someone else and then end my turn.

Do I lose Divine Challenge?

Absolutely. You have not challenged a different target, nor attacked your target, or ended your turn adjacent to your target. Divine Challenge Fail.

-Hyp.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

1) Combat is raging. I have Divine Challenged an orc in the previous round who was five squares away. This round I went up and charged him. That ends my turn.

If, in the previous round, you challenged an orc five squares away and didn't engage him, you can't use Divine Challenge this round. It's not clear that you engaged the orc last round, so I think you might need to clarify your questions a bit.

 

[Kzach]

Answers.

Well... that sucks.

I just made up a paladin and had been thinking on how I was going to use Divine Challenge. That ruins all my strategies.

I have to wonder what the point of having it as a minor action is if the action economy has no part to play in it's use. Other than denying the paladin a minor action every single round, which severely limits the character, it serves no purpose.

The paladin has to engage the target in one way or another. Why not just have that as the rule and incorporate it into a paladin's attacks? It's such a pissy mark anyway being based on Charisma. It's really not that big an incentive not to attack. In fact, the mark itself is the bigger disincentive.

But I guess that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Other than denying the paladin a minor action every single round...

Not every single round. Remember, "The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target".

Round 1: I Challenge Orc A (minor action), and engage him (probably move + standard).

Round 2: I engage Orc A (standard action attack), and have a move and a minor available. Orc A is still Challenged.

Round 3: I engage Orc A (standard action attack), and have a move and a minor available. Orc A is still Challenged.

Round 4: I engage Orc A (standard action attack), and kill him. I spend a minor action to Challenge Orc B, and a move action to move adjacent to him (engaging him).

So any round when I'm not Challenging someone new, it doesn't cost me a minor action.

That ruins all my strategies.

Was one of your strategies "Challenge the enemy whom I wish to concentrate on me, and ensure that each round I either attack him or end my turn adjacent to him"?

That one seems to work for our Paladin.

-Hyp.