Divine Challenge: Switching targets means you don't have to engage?

[Nahat Anoj]

I have to wonder what the point of having it as a minor action is if the action economy has no part to play in it's use. Other than denying the paladin a minor action every single round, which severely limits the character, it serves no purpose.

As Hypersmurf said, as long as you engage the creature (either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it) you don't need to keep spending minor actions to "sustain" the challenge. Spend the minor action on your first turn and stay in the monster's face and you'll be golden for the entire encounter.

The paladin has to engage the target in one way or another. Why not just have that as the rule and incorporate it into a paladin's attacks? It's such a pissy mark anyway being based on Charisma. It's really not that big an incentive not to attack. In fact, the mark itself is the bigger disincentive.

Well, automatic damage is nothing to sneeze at. For example, a fighter might miss with his Combat Superiority attack and do no damage at all to the monster who's chewing up the fighter's wizard buddy. With a paladin, the monster knows for sure that it's going to feel the burn.

 

[Kraydak]

If you happen to be adjacent to the new target, you don't lose DC. If you aren't, then you have neither engaged the new target, nor challenged a different (to the new target) target; DC is lost.

-Hyp.

This answer makes no sense to me. Did the event "you challenged a new target" occur during your turn? Yes, it did. Therefore the challenge is not lost.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This answer makes no sense to me. Did the event "you challenged a new target" occur during your turn? Yes, it did. Therefore the challenge is not lost.

Did the event "You challenged a target different to Target A" occur during your turn? Yes, it did. Therefore Challenge A is satisfied.

Did the event "You challenged a target different to Target B" occur during your turn? No, it didn't. Therefore Challenge B is not satisfied unless you engaged Target B, and the challenge is lost.

On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can’t use divine challenge on your next turn.

How does this read when we use Divine Challenge on Target A?

On your turn, you must engage Target A or challenge someone other than Target A. To engage the Target A, you must either attack Target A or end your turn adjacent to Target A. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can’t use divine challenge on your next turn.

How does this read when we use Divine Challenge on Target B?

On your turn, you must engage Target B or challenge someone other than Target B. To engage the Target B, you must either attack Target B or end your turn adjacent to Target B. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can’t use divine challenge on your next turn.

In our example, we have not satisfied the requirements of the challenge on Target B.

When you use Divine Challenge on Target B, start reading the Divine Challenge text. Don't mix up things that happened under the previous challenge with things that must happen under the current challenge.

I use Divine Challenge on Target B this round. Have I challenged a different target this round? No - the only target I've challenged this round is Target B. The fact that Target B is different to the target of an entirely separate use of Divine Challenge is irrelevant to the conditions of the challenge on Target B.

-Hyp.

 

[Kzach]

Ok... here's another scenario.

You have a paladin with Contagious Challenge. He's adjacent to three enemies. Let's say he DC'd one target in the previous round and ended his turn adjacent to that target. The target remained adjacent to the paladin on its turn.

Then, with Ardent Strike, the paladin successfully hits the DC'd target. The DC'd target is now Divine Sanctioned, and an enemy adjacent to that target is also Divine Sanctioned. The paladin can then Divine Challenge a third opponent, and providing he ends that turn adjacent to the newly DC'd target, he doesn't lose his DC for a turn, right?

So effectively he has marked three targets during one turn without violating any of the conditions of the powers that impose a penalty.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The paladin can then Divine Challenge a third opponent, and providing he ends that turn adjacent to the newly DC'd target, he doesn't lose his DC for a turn, right?

Looks right. He satisfied the condition of the original challenge by challenging a different target (also by attacking the original target), and he satisfied the condition of the new challenge by engaging the new target.

-Hyp.

 

[Kzach]

Well, that's good. That means I can consistently tie-down at least two opponents every turn (without Contagious Challenge) with Divine Challenge and Ardent Strike's Divine Sanction.

Still, having a range on it and making it an action seems a bit odd. Just tying it to a paladin's attack would seem to make more sense and be less confusing.

 

[keterys]

A feat that let you count ardent strike as divine challenge or divine sanction would probably be fine, as would an at-will melee attack that could be a charge that triggered divine challenge.

Otherwise, it's good for things like the ardent+challenge bit that lets you hit two targets. Or for readied actions, weirdly enough.

 

[Kraydak]

Did the event "You challenged a target different to Target B" occur during your turn? No, it didn't. Therefore Challenge B is not satisfied unless you engaged Target B, and the challenge is lost.

The event is "you challenged a different target". The event is NOT "you challenged a target different from your current target". Did I, at some point during my turn, target someone different? Yes. Therefore the challenge condition applies. The challenge B knows about the swap from challenge A (because this is listed in the power as an *event that needs to have happened on my turn*).

...
How does this read when we use Divine Challenge on Target B?

On your turn, you must engage Target B or challenge someone other than Target B. To engage the Target B, you must either attack Target B or end your turn adjacent to Target B. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can’t use divine challenge on your next turn.

In our example, we have not satisfied the requirements of the challenge on Target B.

This is where you are making the mistake. The above is wrong. There is no requirement that the conditions be met on the current target but rather that, at the end of your turn they must have been met during that same turn. Remember, the paragraph starts with: "on your turn". It does not start with "before the end of your turn". The later would do as you say, putting the start of the timer at the use of the challenge on target B. The actual one puts the start of the timer all the way back to the beginning of the turn.

It is the same as a power with some sort of attack that can be used in the place of a charge, with an effect: if you made a charge attack during your turn, you can make an MBA as a free action at the end of your turn. If you charged, action pointed and used this power as a non-charge, you would still get the MBA.

 

[keterys]

I'm going to have to agree with Hypersmurf, not Kraydak, above. I'd encourage folks to draw on wotc-ish resources if they're inclined, though, since it doesn't look like the discussion will reconcile differences.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The event is "you challenged a different target".

Different from what?

The target of the Divine Challenge power is "one creature in burst". Each time you use the power, 'the target' is the 'one creature in burst' you select when you use the power. 'A different target' is a target which is not the 'one creature in burst' you select when you use the power.

If Target A is already challenged, and in this round you challenge Target B, then when you read the text of the power in the context of the challenge you make this round, 'the target' is Target B, and 'a different target' is a-target-which-is-not-Target-B.

A-target-which-is-not-Target-A is only 'a different target' in the context of the original use of the power, not the use you employed this round.

-Hyp.