Divine Disciple PrC (FRCS) -- Waaay too powerful?

[HammerFist]

This PrC is very easy to qualify for (Must be able to cast 4th level Divine Spells, 8 ranks of Know (Religion), and 5 ranks of Diplomacy.

The only drawback is a weak BAB. The PrC has many benefits, though: An extra feat at 1st level, and Transcendance at 5th level. The Transcendance ability allows you to choose one type of alignment to gain Protection from, and once chosen, cannot be changed. You can use this Protection from ... ability as a free action, as many times as you'd like per day.

So, basically you can have Protection from Evil on yourself indefinitely.

There are some other bonuses as well to this PrC, but the two above are the big ones.

 

[The Little Raven]

Re: Divine Disciple PrC (FRCS) -- Waaay to powerful?

This PrC is very easy to qualify for (Must be able to cast 4th level Divine Spells, 8 ranks of Know (Religion), and 5 ranks of Diplomacy.

Easy? Minimum of 7th-level to meet the requirements, so a 1st-level divine disciple is a 8th-level character. That's a higher level requirement than almost every other prestige class (except archmage and hierophant). Hell, the Mystic Theurge is easier and quicker to get into, with dual spellcasting increases and 10 levels.

The only drawback is a weak BAB. The PrC has many benefits, though: An extra feat at 1st level, and Transcendance at 5th level. The Transcendance ability allows you to choose one type of alignment to gain Protection from, and once chosen, cannot be changed. You can use this Protection from ... ability as a free action, as many times as you'd like per day.

Wait... you say "many" but only list two? Two benefits for five levels is "many?" You must find the monk extremely overpowered, since it receives 12 benefits in its first five levels (2 bonus feats, flurry of blows, unarmed strike, evasion, still mind, ki strike, slow fall, purity of body, +10 movement, +1 AC, increased damage)...

Ummm. Where exactly does this bonus feat come from, besides your imagination? They gain an extra DOMAIN at 1st-level, to reflect their further adherence to their deity. This may net the divine disciple a bonus feat, but it is not a freely chosen bonus feat. That is a HUGE difference.

As for Transcendence... yeah, you can receive the effect of a protection spell, usable at will as a free action. A +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus to saves. At 12th-level (minimum to gain Transcendence), most characters would already have a deflection bonus to AC and a resistance bonus to certain saves... except the Transcendence bonus applies to a SINGLE alignment, and is limited in its scope. You also become an Outsider, which gives you a few benefits (charm person not working, for example).

So, basically you can have Protection from Evil on yourself indefinitely.

No, you have a protection from evil when it's your turn. It's a free action, but if you get surprised, you can't activate it until you are able to act in combat. A subtle distinction, but an important one.

There are some other bonuses as well to this PrC, but the two above are the big ones.

Well, since the bonus feat isn't even a part of the class, that doesn't help at all. I find the sacred defense to be much more powerful than the extra domain... after all, you gain up to a +2 bonus on all saves against divine magic. That's pretty good.

 

[HammerFist]

D'oh! Proof positive that I should proofread my post better.

I should have typed additional domain, not bonus feat.

Many bonuses should probably be rephrased as "big freakin' bonuses, with no drawbacks when compared to the base cleric class."

And yes, this is an easy PrC to qualify for. Many PrC's with big-time bonuses like the DD offers have some strange skill requirements, or some feats requirements you normally wouldn't take.

My point is, who wouldn't take this class? The loss of some Turning ability and a point off your BAB is strongly outweighed by what this PrC gives you.

 

[reapersaurus]

umm.. have you seen many spellcasting PrC's?
Look at most of the wizard/sorcerer PrC's, as well as many cleric PrC's - they almost all have small costs, good benefits, and almost no reason not to take them.

You must've burst an artery when looking at the Hospitaler....

 

[James McMurray]

The only reason not to take this class is if you don't have the skill points to spend on diplomacy, or if you are in an undead heavy campaign. Other than that, I can't see why every single cleric out there wouldn't be a Cleric X / Divine Disciple 5 once they're high enough level.

This also holds true for the Contemplative in Defenders of the Faith. The prereqs for that class are laughably easy to get into. Sure, you have to be 11th level to get your first level in the class, but unless you're in an undead heavy campaign there is no reason not to go into it at 11th level, given all of the bonuses it gives you (extra domains, monk-like immunties, slippery mind, and outsider status with DR).

 

[Urbannen]

The only reason I could see not taking the Divine Disciple is for roleplaying reasons. I see the Divine Disciple as a cleric that identifies very personally with his god. The last FR cleric I played extensively did not identify closely with his god Ohgma. He was just a cleric.

I agree, some of the FR PrCs seem too easy to qualify for, including the Divine Champion and the Hierophant.

 

[The Little Raven]

D'oh! Proof positive that I should proofread my post better.

I should have typed additional domain, not bonus feat.

Many bonuses should probably be rephrased as "big freakin' bonuses, with no drawbacks when compared to the base cleric class."

No drawbacks? Loss of turning is a drawback. Loss of cleric-level dependent domain abilities is a drawback.

And yes, this is an easy PrC to qualify for. Many PrC's with big-time bonuses like the DD offers have some strange skill requirements, or some feats requirements you normally wouldn't take.

Mystic Theurge. Requirements are 2nd-level arcane and divine spells. Big-time bonuses (dual spellcasting), with no strange skill or feat requirements whatsoever. You can qualify at 6th-level, enter it at 7th, a level ahead of the divine disciple.

Eldritch Knight. Requirements are 3rd-level arcane spells and proficiency with all martial weapons. You gain +9 spellcasting, a full BAB and a bonus feat. It's just as easy to enter as the Mystic Theurge (5 wizard/1 fighter, 6 character levels), with effectively pointless requirements for the concept.

Archmage/Hierophant. Requirements are 7th-level spells and Knowledge 13 ranks. For a dedicated spellcaster, the requirements for these classes are just a matter of time. They both give very good bonuses, but have no outstanding requirements aside from level.

My point is, who wouldn't take this class? The loss of some Turning ability and a point off your BAB is strongly outweighed by what this PrC gives you.

Who wouldn't? Me.

Over the course of the five levels, you lose two off your BAB (Clr 7/DD5 = BAB +7, Clr 12 = BAB +9), as well as FIVE levels for cleric-level dependent domain effects, and turning undead. Those are very important things for the cleric class. I can also be affected by things that hurt outsiders.

Divine Disciple is not as powerful as Mystic Theurge or Eldritch Knight, but harder to qualify for.

 

[HammerFist]

This also holds true for the Contemplative in Defenders of the Faith. The prereqs for that class are laughably easy to get into. Sure, you have to be 11th level to get your first level in the class, but unless you're in an undead heavy campaign there is no reason not to go into it at 11th level, given all of the bonuses it gives you (extra domains, monk-like immunties, slippery mind, and outsider status with DR).

At least Contemplative knocks you down a HD, and makes your Fort Save a weak one.

Mourn, maybe you wouldn't take it. I think most would.

 

[The Little Raven]

Mourn, maybe you wouldn't take it. I think most would.

And this refutes my arguments... how?

 

[James McMurray]

Mystic Theurge. Requirements are 2nd-level arcane and divine spells. Big-time bonuses (dual spellcasting), with no strange skill or feat requirements whatsoever. You can qualify at 6th-level, enter it at 7th, a level ahead of the divine disciple.

Eldritch Knight. Requirements are 3rd-level arcane spells and proficiency with all martial weapons. You gain +9 spellcasting, a full BAB and a bonus feat. It's just as easy to enter as the Mystic Theurge (5 wizard/1 fighter, 6 character levels), with effectively pointless requirements for the concept.

MT and EK are poor choices for comparison. They are not standard prestige classes, in that they are only there to be a patch for arcane multiclassing. In fact, that's why their requirements are so easy, its expected that almost everyone who wants to multiclass with an arcane class and maintain an even level progression will use MT or EK (or to a lesser extent Arcane Triickster) to do it.

The point remains that Divine Disciple is a very nice class for very easy requirements.

If you're not in an undead heavy campaign, weakening your turning doesn't matter.

If you don't have level dependent domains (most of them aren't) then it doesn't matter that those domains are weakened.

The loss of 2 BAB is easily offset via Divine Power, something practically every combat oriented cleric casts before charging into battle.