Divine Disciple PrC (FRCS) -- Waaay too powerful?

[LuYangShih]

Compare the Divine Disciple to classes that truly out and out increase the power of a PC that takes them. The Frenzied Berserker, the Contemplative, practically any of the arcane spellcasting PrCs that give full spellcasting advancement, the Blackguard, etc.

As I said, the Divine Disciple is nice, but not overpowered. You are almost invariably going to see an increase in a characters power if you allow them to take Prestige Classes. That is the simply the nature of the mechanic.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Martially focussed clerics would also find the class a significant hinderance as they will lose two points of BAB (assuming they take five levels of the class). They will also lose at least one point of reflex save.

A fair number of non-human clerics may even find the skill ranks onerous. (For an 8 int nonhuman cleric, that will preclude even taking the class until 10th level; for a human 8 int or nonhuman 10 int cleric, it will preclude a decent concentration score).

The class is certainly good enough to be attractive however, I would not feel like I was losing out by playing a single-class cleric instead of a divine disciple. I would only consider the Divine Disciple class for a spellcasting focussed cleric. For clerics with a more significant martial or anti-undead focus, I wouldn't take the class.

 

[James McMurray]

LuShang: Yes, but generally speaking those classes have prerequisites that you don't pick up normally (such as feats or skills that are generally considered "suboptimal".

Elder-Basilisk: Hence my statement above about non-martial clerics and Divine Power.

 

[LuYangShih]

I tend to disagree, James. Consider the Blackguard, for example. I hardly think the requisites that class has hinder progression into its ranks, and it is significantly better to choose to be a Blackguard than a pure Paladin, or Fighter.

 

[James McMurray]

1) 5 ranks of hide are generally "suboptimal" for a fighter or paladin. 2 ranks of Knowledge (Religion) are not only suboptimal for a non-paladin fighter-type, but they also require a heavy expenditure in cross class skills.

2) Improved Sunder is nice, but most fighters I have seen would rather take improved disarm so they don't have to contend with hardness and destroying loot.

3) The class has nice abilities, but it also has prereqs that you don't gain just by being a member of your class and spending your skills normally.

4) The biggest hinderance in a lot of groups would be the evil alignment requirement. That puts it out of the realms of use of a lot of PCs.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think it's a mistake to think that prerequisites for p-classes ought automatically to be punitive. My take is that they ought to, in the first place, define the kind of character who will gain the class's abilities. The cavalier needs mounted combat not because it's a suboptimal feat for most characters but because all characters who take the class ought to be skilled at mounted combat. Similarly, Templar requires Endurance, WF: Deity's favored weapon (sometimes a drawback--Pholtus or Wee Jas for instance), and knowledge: religion ranks not because it needs costs to balance out the benefit but because Templars ought to be skilled in their deity's weapons, ought to be able to exert themselves longer than others, and ought to be educated in the teachings of their faith.

Now, balance issues enter into it as well but I think the primary purpose of prerequisites is to define candidates for the class rather than to punish them.

And speaking of punishment/drawbacks, especially for clerics (who, IME, tend to have 2 or 3 skill points/level), skill ranks do represent a very significant balancing factor in a game. Obviously this is less true in >32 point buy games, but I'd maintain (having run a 36 point buy game for several years and found that it was like giving PCs at least one extra level (vis a vis 28 point buy) in terms of offensive capability) that such games are inherently unbalanced anyway.

 

[Wycen]

I like the Divine Disciple prestige class.

I played in a 3E Planescape campaign with a half-elf rogue 2/cleric 7/Divine Disciple 3, 12th level character before the game ended. I had planned and would have happily taken all 5 levels, as the Transcendence part seemed very appropriate considering my character and the game history.

Now, I'm playing another cleric, of Nemorga, the Scarred Lands god of death and while I did build my character so he could take the DD prestige class, ultimately I didn't. The reason? Didn't think it was appropriate, for various reasons, including roleplaying/character history. I wanted to multiclass with some Arcana Unearthed stuff, but the DM has recently clamped down, (which is becoming an issue for all the players), so I'm now going to multiclass with some fighter levels. Not the best combination in my opinion, but oh well.

I don't think the DD is over powered and I'm not sure you can really compare it to the Mystic Theurge or Eldritch knight directly. For my rogue/cleric/DD, I had to spend some of those rogue skill points to get all the ranks needed.