James McMurray
First Post
I think the fact that he and the goddess of magic are "close" is the only explanation needed for his immunity to Time Stop.
Divine Favor and Persistent Spell
- Thread starter Frum
- Start date
HEL Pit Fiend
First Post
Orco42 said:
I know it is not written in his description, it's written as an immunity, but immunity to time stop makes no sense to me, as immunity to fireball or evards tentacles do make sense. I'm a DM, and as a DM I make judgement calls, to me it makes sense to call it improved Spell Stowaway.
In the end, who the f**k cares, it means the same thing, YOUR time stops won't affect him.
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First, I think that Divine Favor/Persistent Spell is too strong unless the characters are in a campaign where they regularly have to worry about foes with Dispel Magic.
In a campaign where they typically deal with spellcasters . . . I'd let it slide. In a campaign where it's usually a monster-hunt . . . I think it's too good.
Way too good.
Some other poster said that clerics don't have the "defensive ability" of fighters, and so they wouldn't last as long. This is, of course, a painfully ignorant thing to say
. A 12th level cleric can Heal himself. I think that counts as as much "defensive ability" as having Expertise or Dodge or whatnot.
Final point: Some people have claimed that Area Dispels work on each item in the area -- so if you Area Dispelled a cleric, you'd get him, and each of his magical items (such as his Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments).
I am almost certain this is incorrect. In every other aspect of 3E, items count as "part of the character", because they are attended. I am 99% sure that an Area Dispel on a cleric would affect only the highest level spell . . . and not each one of his items as well. It's possible I'm wrong, in which case I humbly await for the proper citation from the Sage or Caliban.
In a campaign where they typically deal with spellcasters . . . I'd let it slide. In a campaign where it's usually a monster-hunt . . . I think it's too good.
Way too good.
Some other poster said that clerics don't have the "defensive ability" of fighters, and so they wouldn't last as long. This is, of course, a painfully ignorant thing to say
. A 12th level cleric can Heal himself. I think that counts as as much "defensive ability" as having Expertise or Dodge or whatnot. Final point: Some people have claimed that Area Dispels work on each item in the area -- so if you Area Dispelled a cleric, you'd get him, and each of his magical items (such as his Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments).
I am almost certain this is incorrect. In every other aspect of 3E, items count as "part of the character", because they are attended. I am 99% sure that an Area Dispel on a cleric would affect only the highest level spell . . . and not each one of his items as well. It's possible I'm wrong, in which case I humbly await for the proper citation from the Sage or Caliban
.Forrester: Your final point is correct. An Area Dispel does not remove all items.
Briefly, Dispel Magic has three applications.
Area Dispel: Make dispel checks against all creatures in 30' radius. You start with the most powerful spell, and continue to make dispel checks against spells of decreasing caster level until ONE is dispelled. Thus, you can get rid of one spell per person.
Targeted Dispel (Person): Make dispel checks against all spells on that person, starting with the one of strongest caster level. Thus, up to all of the spells active on that person can be dispelled BUT not permanent magical items (so a GMW is target, but a regular magic weapon is not).
Targeted Dispel (Item): You make one dispel check against one item. Its power is negated for d4 rounds- this is the way to lower one single item, and one item only.
Thus, your best bet against a single cleric is the second option. You have a fair shot of getting rid of much of his magic but you can't affect his allies. Of course, if you have Chain Spell, a Chained Targeted Dispel Magic can do this.
And Lela:
Only if they don't have Spellcraft. A character with Spellcraft can easily tell what Dispel Magic does (and a DC 18 for a 12th level character is not hard: 15 ranks + Int).
Briefly, Dispel Magic has three applications.
Area Dispel: Make dispel checks against all creatures in 30' radius. You start with the most powerful spell, and continue to make dispel checks against spells of decreasing caster level until ONE is dispelled. Thus, you can get rid of one spell per person.
Targeted Dispel (Person): Make dispel checks against all spells on that person, starting with the one of strongest caster level. Thus, up to all of the spells active on that person can be dispelled BUT not permanent magical items (so a GMW is target, but a regular magic weapon is not).
Targeted Dispel (Item): You make one dispel check against one item. Its power is negated for d4 rounds- this is the way to lower one single item, and one item only.
Thus, your best bet against a single cleric is the second option. You have a fair shot of getting rid of much of his magic but you can't affect his allies. Of course, if you have Chain Spell, a Chained Targeted Dispel Magic can do this.
And Lela:
Only if they don't have Spellcraft. A character with Spellcraft can easily tell what Dispel Magic does (and a DC 18 for a 12th level character is not hard: 15 ranks + Int).
Gumby said:
A +1 flame burst sword, with greater magic weapon on it, would be subject to losing the GMW spell. But the +1 flame burst portions are not because they are the actual "magic item".
Likewise, a staff of the magi would not be affected. But if it had, say, a light spell cast on it, then the spell itself is vulnerable.
Area dispel can affect any object (even magical ones), but not the inherent magical properties of said object. Just any active spells placed on them.
That's how I read the distinction, anyway.
Hmmm . . . you're correct that it doesn't say "unattended" in the Dispel Magic description -- I believe that was the intent, but I have to agree that by the letter of the spell, the cleric is going to have a bigger chance to lose that Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments . . .
Still, it's obvious from the rest of the PHB that whether an object is attended or not is usually very important. I wonder if the Sage has clarified this.
Still, it's obvious from the rest of the PHB that whether an object is attended or not is usually very important. I wonder if the Sage has clarified this.
decision made
Thanks for all the replies everyone. They were informative, despite someone derailing the thread to talk about the everpresent persistant time stop topic.
I have decided not to allow any of the characters in my campaign to use persistant spell. I am disallowing it for the following reasons:
1. My campaign does not involve enough enemy spellcasters to allow for dispel magic as a feasible solution.
2. Even if the enemy casters were present in abundance, I still think that it is a bit contrived to always dispel effects on characters. I have no problem doing so, but if I did so commonly enough, the net effect would be to disallow the persistant spell feat.
3. Persistant spell, if I read it correctly, is greatly overpowered. Despite the fact that it has a prerequisite feat (a useful one at that), and adds 4 levels to the spell in question, the effect far outstrips that of other metamagic feats. This is because the spells that persistant spell would be used on are low level spells in general, some of which have significant effects over a short duration. I see the short duration as the balancing effect on such spells, and, when that effect is made for all intents and purposes permanent, the spell's effect usually outstrips spell effects at a comparable level. Every caster in my campaign would want this feat, and that is a good sign that there is something wrong with the feat.
Divine Favor, for example, is a 5th level spell when persistant. For a cleric who fights in melee, I really don't see any 5th level spells with a comparable effect. Flame Strike, perhaps, because it has an area of effect. Divine Power would turn the cleric into a fighter with fewer feats and a good strength. Once all these spells are added in, it seems too powerful. Barkskin and Shield of Faith are other examples.
Other examples on the arcane side may be even worse. Persistant shield? Haste? Displacement? A permanent displacement effect has a huge cost associated with it.
You get the point. I can see that this could (and apparently does) work with some campaigns; but for mine, it would not work.
I would need to intervene with the characters in a significant way to balance the game, and, as I said before, I think the net effect would be disallowal of the benefit of persistant spell.
Thanks again for the input.
Thanks for all the replies everyone. They were informative, despite someone derailing the thread to talk about the everpresent persistant time stop topic.
I have decided not to allow any of the characters in my campaign to use persistant spell. I am disallowing it for the following reasons:
1. My campaign does not involve enough enemy spellcasters to allow for dispel magic as a feasible solution.
2. Even if the enemy casters were present in abundance, I still think that it is a bit contrived to always dispel effects on characters. I have no problem doing so, but if I did so commonly enough, the net effect would be to disallow the persistant spell feat.
3. Persistant spell, if I read it correctly, is greatly overpowered. Despite the fact that it has a prerequisite feat (a useful one at that), and adds 4 levels to the spell in question, the effect far outstrips that of other metamagic feats. This is because the spells that persistant spell would be used on are low level spells in general, some of which have significant effects over a short duration. I see the short duration as the balancing effect on such spells, and, when that effect is made for all intents and purposes permanent, the spell's effect usually outstrips spell effects at a comparable level. Every caster in my campaign would want this feat, and that is a good sign that there is something wrong with the feat.
Divine Favor, for example, is a 5th level spell when persistant. For a cleric who fights in melee, I really don't see any 5th level spells with a comparable effect. Flame Strike, perhaps, because it has an area of effect. Divine Power would turn the cleric into a fighter with fewer feats and a good strength. Once all these spells are added in, it seems too powerful. Barkskin and Shield of Faith are other examples.
Other examples on the arcane side may be even worse. Persistant shield? Haste? Displacement? A permanent displacement effect has a huge cost associated with it.
You get the point. I can see that this could (and apparently does) work with some campaigns; but for mine, it would not work.
I would need to intervene with the characters in a significant way to balance the game, and, as I said before, I think the net effect would be disallowal of the benefit of persistant spell.
Thanks again for the input.
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