Divine Metamagic Feat

[Thanee]

Everyone complains about that feat, cryin' out "you can make broken stuff with it", but don't do the Metamagic Rods exactly the same and those rods are doin' it since 3.0 T&B was released.
So if that feat ist broken, aren't those rods as well?

To some extent, yes.

Bye
Thanee

 

[rushlight]

Everyone complains about that feat, cryin' out "you can make broken stuff with it", but don't do the Metamagic Rods exactly the same and those rods are doin' it since 3.0 T&B was released.
So if that feat ist broken, aren't those rods as well?
That the turning attempts are keyed to the CHA-score and not to the CLR/PAL-level is not the fault of the feat, it's the fault of the ability as it is written.
Allowing this feat to work for other spellcasting classes a character with this feat might have, that have not the ability to turn undead themself to power the feat, makes absolutely no sense to me.

Yep, and that's why I fixed those rods for my game.

And eliminated everything from The Complete(ly Twinked) Warrior and Divine.

I've found that for my game, staying as close to Core as possible is best. I like to keep the focus on the world, story, and the character's in-game persona - not which feats make the best k177a k0MbO. I've found that an endless supply of better/faster/stronger feats and spells undermines the focus on the in-game aspect - at least for my players. Several of my players are new to PnP RPGs, but veterans of CRPGs. Coming from that envionment, they tend to focus on which feat/widget/spell gives them the most bang for the least buck. I'm trying to give them a broader appreciation of the game, and the stuff coming from WoTC just panders to the "I need new toys" crowd.

In a situation with veteran PnP players, my attitude would probably change. Those who have been around a while can usually keep focused on the game with little trouble, and usually will build interesting characters with personality, not just a collection of the coolest stats and feats with which the beat-downs will occur. I'm attempting to teach my players that fun can be had with sub-optimal builds or that not all wizards are the same, even if the class abilities are. In other words that the possession of stats and a class does not equal a character.

 

[Madriver]

Actually, it only works on divine spells. (Tell me, do any of the Charisma-based divine spellcasting classes get turn undead?

It makes the favored soul with either 1 level of cleric or one level of a turn undead prestige class very attractive...a charisma based divine spell caster with turn undead.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Makes you wonder what kind of "feats" will turn up in Complete Arcane, eh?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It appears to eb intentional that a cleric can metamagic his highest level of spells. One nice applicaiton is to quicken (or persist) divine power. It eats 4 (or 7) turn attempts but it enables to the cleric to get his/her combat abilities up quickly if surprised.

This feat makes extra turning actually a possible feat for a cleric to select.

Yes, they intentionally broke it. They could have had it save spell slots instead of breaking the metacap like the incantatrix did. And we all remember just how well-balanced that class was, right?

Everyone complains about that feat, cryin' out "you can make broken stuff with it", but don't do the Metamagic Rods exactly the same and those rods are doin' it since 3.0 T&B was released.
So if that feat ist broken, aren't those rods as well?

Yes, the rods are broken. It's not like the core rules are perfect.

That the turning attempts are keyed to the CHA-score and not to the CLR/PAL-level is not the fault of the feat, it's the fault of the ability as it is written.

Why write a feat based on an ability that doesn't work?

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Everyone complains about that feat, cryin' out "you can make broken stuff with it", but don't do the Metamagic Rods exactly the same and those rods are doin' it since 3.0 T&B was released.
So if that feat ist broken, aren't those rods as well?

Yeah, pretty much.

And eliminated everything from The Complete(ly Twinked) Warrior and Divine.

I've found that for my game, staying as close to Core as possible is best. I like to keep the focus on the world, story, and the character's in-game persona - not which feats make the best k177a k0MbO. I've found that an endless supply of better/faster/stronger feats and spells undermines the focus on the in-game aspect - at least for my players.

You really can't blame the books for that kind of behavior, can you? I don't see how throwing the "twinky" books out will help anything, those type of players will just focus on the PHB feats instead. Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave is about the most "killa kombo" you can get for a melee fighter, and that's 100% PHB. I don't see the problem, really. I love what the new books add to the mix (except of course for the occasional crazy feat or 2 and some nutty PrC's; all of which are easily ruled out on case-by-case).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

You really can't blame the books for that kind of behavior, can you? I don't see how throwing the "twinky" books out will help anything, those type of players will just focus on the PHB feats instead. Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave is about the most "killa kombo" you can get for a melee fighter, and that's 100% PHB. I don't see the problem, really. I love what the new books add to the mix (except of course for the occasional crazy feat or 2 and some nutty PrC's; all of which are easily ruled out on case-by-case).

I can. More options are good, more broken options are bad. (You can "stack" options, remember.)

In any event I didn't find CW to be all that broken, other than a few PrCs (and some of the feats were overpowered, too - but it was WotC's first try so I cut them slack on that) but I can hardly believe they brought back the frenzied berserker. Plus I can't believe how much they screwed up the samurai, ronin* and "spell-less" ranger. But the worst part was 70% prestige classes, in a book that was supposed to provide options for warrior classes. Their options didn't involve staying in those classes!

Complete Divine didn't overdo the prestige classes, although once again it introduced a bunch of pathetic (Entropomancer), wonky (Ur-Priest) and overpowered (Radiant Servant of Pelor) prestige classes and a bunch of broken feats specifically designed to break metacap.

I won't spend a dollar on either book, but if a player wanted to waste money on Complete Warrior, I'd let the feats in (with a few modifications, of course). The Complete Divine gets shown the door, however.

*Here's news for WotC:
Westerners like myself didn't appreciate this "westernized" samurai. I knew it wasn't accurate before I went hunting for the Book of Five Rings. You can find that online; you don't have to go hunting through the rare book section of any library.
You can go hunting through the WotC library for a copy of OA.
OA did the Samurai better by making it a flexible class with different fighting styles.
OA did the dual-wielding samurai better (as a prestige class and as feats!).
OA knew what a ronin was.
Musashi, the dual-wielding "samurai" was actually a ronin! (So much for that terrible ronin PrC!)
The samurai class gives you a specific fighting style from the start, sort of like the 3.0 ranger. That's not how you design a base class, that's how you design a prestige class.
It's based on a single representative of the class, like the 3.0 ranger.
It's based on a single inaccurate representative of the class, like the 3.0 ranger.
It has that exact same problem as the ranger. Why fix the class and just bring the crud back?

 

[Falling Icicle]

Pay careful attention to #3. You can pull off such tricks as a Maximized flame strike at 9th-level. WotC is breaking the metacap as fast as they broke save DCs with Spell Power.

Yeah, they also removed the cap from the Incantatrix ability.

Yep, and that's why I fixed those rods for my game.

And eliminated everything from The Complete(ly Twinked) Warrior and Divine.

I think you guys are overreacting.

Keep in mind that an Incantatrix can only use Instant Metamagic once or twice per day until Epic levels. It's a cool ability, but if people honestly think it is "broken," I must beg to differ. Yeah, it lets you do something that you normally can't do, that being exceed your normal spell limit for a single metamagic. But isn't that what all class abilities and feats do, let you do something better than you normally could or even allow you to do something you normally can't? One can not normally summon shadow companions and teleport between shadows. Does that make the Shadowdancer broken?

No, a normal 13th level Wizard can't empower his delayed blast fireball. An Incantatrix can a couple of times per day. Big deal! He's only doing 50% more damage than he would otherwise, and a Wizard of the same level could deal the exact same amount of damage by also using a quickened fireball that turn. It gives them a little bit of extra flexibility and or power to call upon each day. But it is not like it lets Incantatrixes do more powerful things than anyone else can. I just don't see a problem with it.

Divine Metamagic is also a pretty cool ability. But it is also pretty expensive. First, it costs a feat, and believe me, Clerics and Druids don't get many of those. Second, you have to pick the metamagic feat it works with, and it can never be used for anything else unless you sacrifice even more feats, not only to get the divine metamagic again, but also the metamagic to use it with. Remember, a normal Cleric or Druid only has 7 feats (8 if human). If you start getting extra turnings, metamagics, and divine metamagic, you'll run out of feats very quickly. You'll be a great caster, and that's a perfectly suitable specialty, but is it really more powerful than a Cleric who chooses something else? There have been plenty of feats published that allow a Cleric to make alternative uses of his turning ability. Also, the number of turning attempts used up for powerful metamagics means most priests can only use this ability to add things like quicken and maximize spell a couple of times per day, and he's giving up his uses of an important class ability to do it. I just don't see a problem with this either.

And finally, metamagic rods are another one people often complain about. First, they have a limit on what level of spells they can modify, and the rods which can modify 9th level spells are very expensive. Think of what other gear a Wizard could get for that price! Think of how much impact rings of protection, bracers of armor, and especially rings of wizardry have on a character, and then honestly tell me you think the ability to use a metamagic for "free" 3 times per day is overpowered for an item of that price! Again, no problem.

I think people are often too quick to overreact about things without actually studying and testing it out. Yeah, there are some very broken things in this game, but I honestly can say that in my experience, Instant Metamagic, Divine Metamagic, and metamgic rods are not among them! It might look scary at first glance, but before you people flip out, hit the panic button, and rule it out of your game, why don't you just take a deep breath, have just a little faith in the writers, and give it a try. You might be surprised with the result.

[edit] fixed quotes and spelling

 

[rushlight]

Yeah, it lets you do something that you normally can't do, that being exceed your normal spell limit for a single metamagic. But isn't that what all class abilities and feats do, let you do something better than you normally could or even allow you to do something you normally can't? One can not normally summon shadow companions and teleport between shadows. Does that make the Shadowdancer broken?

Well first, doing something you normally couldn't and doing something that seriously abuses the rules are two different beasts. Exceeding the normal spell limit with metamagic feats can be very unbalancing - and since I don't want to go through the book spell by spell sorting which spells are balanced or not with this ability I just banned this ability. Second, I've banned Shadowdancer as well (because the rules are so undefined for that class it leads to too many arguments).

But it is also pretty expensive. First, it costs a feat, and believe me, Clerics and Druids don't get many of those. Second, you have to pick the metamagic feat it works with, and it can never be used for anything else unless you sacrifice even more feats, not only to get the divine metamagic again, but also the metamagic to use it with. Remember, a normal Cleric or Druid only has 7 feats (8 if human). If you start getting extra turnings, metamagics, and divine metamagic, you'll run out of feats very quickly.

So it costs a feat - so do most abilities and that's not a big deal. Also, none of the text I've seen says that the modified feat cannot be used in it's normal fashion, so you haven't lost the use of the feat you previously had. Third, the main balancing feature of the Divine Metamagic feat is that it takes turn attempts in place of extra spell levels. That is just absurd. Any cleric of moderate level will have FAR more turn attepmts than they need in a normal day (if they ever even use ANY!). Certainly they have more turn attepmts than they do higher level spell slots. So this feat exchanges the cost of the improved spell from a valuable and limited commodity (the balancing feature, a higher spell slot) to a non-valuable, more abundant commodity (turn attempts, which a cleric will usually have in surplus). Not to mention that the modified spell can exceed the bounds of the original feat.

So for the cost of a feat you get a better metamagic feat, that costs far less to use than the usual feat. And it's better. That's broken. Why not give a fighter a feat that lets him replace his hit points with his available gold? So he loses GP instead of HP. Sure, it costs a feat so it's balanced - but it doesn't really matter if you've swapped a valuable resources (HPs) for a much more available resources (GPs). Would YOU allow this in a game?

There have been plenty of feats published that allow a Cleric to make alternative uses of his turning ability. Also, the number of turning attempts used up for powerful metamagics means most priests can only use this ability to add things like quicken and maximize spell a couple of times per day, and he's giving up his uses of an important class ability to do it. I just don't see a problem with this either.

Heh, and they are all banned from my game. Turn attempts aren't that valuable. There's a ton of them, especially at higher levels. Plus they are only desgined to be useful against one type of monster - undead - and usually lower level ones at that. That's what Turning was designed to do. Who ever thought of taking a minor, abundant ability and switch it for valuable, powerful abilities was not thinking about game balance. Why not allow a fighter to exchange his fourth swing (which almost always misses) for a significant bonus to his first three swings, or to his saves, or his AC?

Think of what other gear a Wizard could get for that price! Think of how much impact rings of protection, bracers of armor, and especially rings of wizardry have on a character, and then honestly tell me you think the ability to use a metamagic for "free" 3 times per day is overpowered for an item of that price! Again, no problem.

I think people are often too quick to overreact about things without actually studying and testing it out.

Oh, I allowed the rods in the beginning. They quickly got out of hand - who wouldn't want a free maximize or whatever? Besides, "3 times per day" often means "3 times per encounter" - not to mention the use of multiple rods. What you've done is exchanged higher level spell slots for GP. A careful adventurer will have far more GP than higher level spell slots.

In your search for balance, be wary of abilities that give additional bonuses while lowering the cost. Going this route will lead to overpowered PCs, lopsided combats, and usually an un-fun game. Unless you either like your PCs to win every combat hands-down, with no sweat - or like killing your PCs with monsters far above their level (just so the monster gets a round or two in before the PCs squish it).

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, they also removed the cap from the Incantatrix ability.

I think you guys are overreacting.

Keep in mind that an Incantatrix can only use Instant Metamagic once or twice per day until Epic levels. It's a cool ability, but if people honestly think it is "broken," I must beg to differ. ...

Overreacting!? OVERREACTING!? OVERREACTING!?!1!1?!!? *screams*

j/k

I thought my statement was fairly unevaluative, really...

Only thing I said was, that these abilities can easily create some very broken stuff (especially with Persistent Spell), and that is certainly true from an objective viewpoint.

Bye
Thanee