Divine Metamagic Feat

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I agree with the overreacting sentiment. To completely ban books just b/c they don't match your preferences as a DM is heavy-handed and a surefire way to lose players. Afterall, it's their game too and if they went out and spent the bucks to buy the books just to have the DM say "Nope, I don't like something so I'm banning everything" is ridiculous, IMHO.

 

[Silveras]

I agree with the overreacting sentiment. To completely ban books just b/c they don't match your preferences as a DM is heavy-handed and a surefire way to lose players. Afterall, it's their game too and if they went out and spent the bucks to buy the books just to have the DM say "Nope, I don't like something so I'm banning everything" is ridiculous, IMHO.

Now THAT I disagree with. The DM gets final call. If the DM says "No", that's it. I don't want to hear about how someone already bought the book. The DM has the responsibility for preserving balance in the game. If the DM feels a book breaks that balance, banning a book is a perfectly appropriate response.

Likewise, the DM creates the flavor of the world. Any book, in whole or part, that does not fit that flavor should not be allowed in use.

If a player bought the book already, tough. Smart players ask first, or at least pick up books with the understanding that it may NOT be allowed.

Any player who insists that a book MUST be allowed is welcome to leave my game.

 

[rushlight]

Now THAT I disagree with. The DM gets final call. If the DM says "No", that's it. I don't want to hear about how someone already bought the book. The DM has the responsibility for preserving balance in the game. If the DM feels a book breaks that balance, banning a book is a perfectly appropriate response.

Likewise, the DM creates the flavor of the world. Any book, in whole or part, that does not fit that flavor should not be allowed in use.

If a player bought the book already, tough. Smart players ask first, or at least pick up books with the understanding that it may NOT be allowed.

Any player who insists that a book MUST be allowed is welcome to leave my game.

Exactly. Not to mention that the DM does tons more work to keep the game running than the players do. Not that the work is a problem - that's just the job of the DM. But he who does the work makes the rules.

IMC, we had to make a decision reguarding a player who's style differed from the remainder of the group. He wanted an "anything goes" game (despite joining the game in the first place, fully aware of the restrictions). To him, "anything goes" meant "I wanna be uber, and I don't want to have to face a challenge". Well, that bothered the rest of the players who liked the campaign the way it was, and would have been totally overshadowed and rendered useless if said player could have had his way. When 3 players are balanced, and the forth just can't stand not being the best badboy on the block... well, we found a new player.

In other words, if a player doesn't like the DM's style, it's not so bad to lose a player. Balance is the DM's job. Each player deserves a chance to shine, and most players really enjoy the fights that are difficult, but winnable. Balance is what makes those things possible. Since the DM is the one who sets the tone, he sets the balance. Unless the DM is taking steps to keep the monsters level with the PCs (which means heavy modifications) then those feats (and items) mentioned above are likely unbalancing.

I'll even go so far as to say that even then, IMHO, things get precarious. First, to keep up, you'd need to give monsters the same higher power abilities as PCs, or new abilities that specifically counter PC abilities. Specifcially countering PC abilities often will usually annoy a player - besides, why allow a PC to have an ability you don't intend to let him use? Giving the monsters those higher power abilities is dangerous. When a PC kills a monster in round 1 or 2, the DM's reaction will be different than if an NPC with the same ability kills a PC in round 1 or 2.

Second, when PC offensive abilities exceed their defensive abilities, the effective use of monsters becomes very difficult. If you throw up a monster that won't kill them in round 1, they will usually easily out gun that monster. If you use a monster that can actually take a few rounds of whatever the PCs can dish out, the monster's offensive abilities will often overpower the PCs way to easy. So you can see that feats that dramatically (and more cheaply, in the case of Divine Metamagic) increase PC offense must be balanced with PC defense, and the monsters that they will fight.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think you guys are overreacting.

Keep in mind that an Incantatrix can only use Instant Metamagic once or twice per day until Epic levels. It's a cool ability, but if people honestly think it is "broken," I must beg to differ.

And I must beg to differ with you.

Yeah, it lets you do something that you normally can't do, that being exceed your normal spell limit for a single metamagic. But isn't that what all class abilities and feats do, let you do something better than you normally could or even allow you to do something you normally can't?

Not by that much. Powerful feats usually come with BAB requirements, caster level requirements, or costs that count, and they still don't let you act like a character of much higher level like that.

One can not normally summon shadow companions and teleport between shadows. Does that make the Shadowdancer broken?

Actually, the shadowdancer's main problem is the unclear rules around Hide in Plain Sight, available at first level. It doesn't help that a lot of people interpret HiPS as very powerful, so they can get away with just taking one level of it and go bafck to sneak attack goodness.

Furthermore, you can summon creatures more powerful than shadows - you can even create them* - and you can dimension door without those restrictions without being a shadowdancer.

No, a normal 13th level Wizard can't empower his delayed blast fireball. An Incantatrix can a couple of times per day. Big deal! He's only doing 50% more damage than he would otherwise, and a Wizard of the same level could deal the exact same amount of damage by also using a quickened fireball that turn.

Have you seen what happens to a 13th-level wizard who gets hit by one of those things? Unless wizards everywhere are going to walk around with an immediate elemental immunity spell then this is quite unfair to them.

It gives them a little bit of extra flexibility and or power to call upon each day. But it is not like it lets Incantatrixes do more powerful things than anyone else can. I just don't see a problem with it.

Yes, they can, they can do more powerful things than other characters at earlier levels.

Divine Metamagic is also a pretty cool ability. But it is also pretty expensive. First, it costs a feat, and believe me, Clerics and Druids don't get many of those. Second, you have to pick the metamagic feat it works with, and it can never be used for anything else unless you sacrifice even more feats, not only to get the divine metamagic again, but also the metamagic to use it with. Remember, a normal Cleric or Druid only has 7 feats (8 if human). If you start getting extra turnings, metamagics, and divine metamagic, you'll run out of feats very quickly. You'll be a great caster, and that's a perfectly suitable specialty, but is it really more powerful than a Cleric who chooses something else? There have been plenty of feats published that allow a Cleric to make alternative uses of his turning ability. Also, the number of turning attempts used up for powerful metamagics means most priests can only use this ability to add things like quicken and maximize spell a couple of times per day, and he's giving up his uses of an important class ability to do it. I just don't see a problem with this either.

Perhaps you think the small number of feats used to "balance" this ability actually works. It does not. If I were a cleric I wouldn't think twice of taking Extra Turning two or three times for an ability that is this powerful.

None of those turning feats are this powerful, either, and they take the same number of feats.

And finally, metamagic rods are another one people often complain about. First, they have a limit on what level of spells they can modify, and the rods which can modify 9th level spells are very expensive. Think of what other gear a Wizard could get for that price!

By the time you can cast 9th-level spells, you're walking around with 300,000 or 500,000 gp worth of magic items, and wizards don't rely on their items as much as non-spellcasters either. I'm not seeing these ars being balanced before epic levels. Ever since when have items been more powerful for determining what your character can do than your character's own special abilities?

Think of how much impact rings of protection, bracers of armor, and especially rings of wizardry have on a character, and then honestly tell me you think the ability to use a metamagic for "free" 3 times per day is overpowered for an item of that price! Again, no problem.

Again, problem!

I think people are often too quick to overreact about things without actually studying and testing it out.

Nice try, but this issue has been there before. Metamagic rods were available in 3.0 - people complained, but WotC did not listen. Indeed, WotC cut their price.

The incantatrix was around in 3.0 and had to be hit with huge nerfs to wrestle it into some kind of balance.

And finally, did you notice the (Psi) in my handle? Psionics 3.0 used to do the same thing and it was busted. I've used the 3.0 psionics ruleset extensively and I can tell you from experience as both a player and a DM that busting the metacap like that was busted - even though psions didn't get the wizard's free scaling.

The XPH is a lot more balanced than the 3.0 PsiH, and one reason is that they cut back on such abuse. At least one WotC author seemed capable of learning lessons from the fanbase.

Yeah, there are some very broken things in this game, but I honestly can say that in my experience, Instant Metamagic, Divine Metamagic, and metamgic rods are not among them! It might look scary at first glance, but before you people flip out, hit the panic button, and rule it out of your game, why don't you just take a deep breath, have just a little faith in the writers, and give it a try. You might be surprised with the result.

I've already tried, and these things are among the very broken things in the game.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Have you seen what happens to a 13th-level wizard who gets hit by one of those things? Unless wizards everywhere are going to walk around with an immediate elemental immunity spell then this is quite unfair to them.

Have you ever seen what happens to a 13th level wizard who gets hit by a delayed blast fireball and quickened fireball in the same round? A 13th level Wizard can do this, and he doesn't need to be an Incantatrix.

Yes, they can, they can do more powerful things than other characters at earlier levels.

Every prestige class gives a character an area of specialty where he is better than equivalent characters. That's the whole point of prestige classes. If they weren't better at the abilities they focus in, then why put up with the requirements, restrictions, etc of a prestige class?

Perhaps you think the small number of feats used to "balance" this ability actually works. It does not. If I were a cleric I wouldn't think twice of taking Extra Turning two or three times for an ability that is this powerful.

Of course it works. Lets say you take Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) as a Cleric so that you can do some of the power plays that have been mentioned before. First, you must take the Persistent Spell metamagic, and since that feat has such a ridiculous cost, you aren't likely to use it except with divine metamagic. So the orignal feat is pretty much a waste. And you get to use the persistance, what, once a day? Woo hoo! That's worth two feats, especially when all it takes to ruin your "munchkin" fun is a dispel magic. And god knows, any spellcaster with half a brain has at least one of those prepared.

By the time you can cast 9th-level spells, you're walking around with 300,000 or 500,000 gp worth of magic items, and wizards don't rely on their items as much as non-spellcasters either.

Now that is just plain false. Wizards need items and equipment as much as or more than anyone else. Sure a 17th level Wizard has a few hundred k to spend on items, but how much of that wealth do you think went just to his spellbooks? A spellbook library costs more than any warrior's "golfbag" of weapons! Not to mention costly material components, staves, scrolls, wands, bracers of armor, ring of wizardry, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, headband of intillect, cloak of resistance, a golem bodyguard, etc etc etc. The Wizard is the biggest money vaccuum of all the classes, bar none. I know this from personal experience because I like to play Wizards, and have also played just about everything else in this game at some point.

The incantatrix was around in 3.0 and had to be hit with huge nerfs to wrestle it into some kind of balance.

Now this is just unbelievable. After playing both the 3.0 and 3.5 Incantatrix, I can say that the 3.5 is unquestionably superior to its predecessor. In fact, we had to cut out all but one of the bonus feats just to make it more balanced. Not only does it get several incredibly powerful and useful abilities, it gets FOUR bonus feats! And the new abilities it has are much more useful and much more powerful than the abilities is lost (save the immunity to energy drain and death effects it had in 3.0).

In fact, what I'm about to say may shock you. The 3.5 Incantatrix is probably the most broken spellcasting prestige class in the game. But it's not broken because of Instant Metamagic, it's broken becasue it gets some of the coolest powers I've ever seen given to a spellcaster, and has four bonus feats on top of it. And the fact that metamgic effect and cooperative metamagic can each be used 3 + int bonus times per day leads to having so many free metamagics its mind boggling. We cut out all but one of the bonus feats and made it 3 + int bonus total times per day for those abilities. Its much more balanced with those modifications.

And here's another thought for you to consider. If you think something is broken, if you have tried and tested it and it just doesn't work for your game, rather than going to the extreme of banning it, why not just change it to make it more reasonable for you? If you really think that Instant Metamagic is broken, perhaps you can rule that it can't raise a spell above the normal maximum spell level, or you can make the character roll a Spellcraft check DC 18 + (3 x adjusted spell level), like the Metamagic Effect ability? If you don't think that the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight is clear enough, why not clarify it yourself? Like I said above, we think that the Incantatrix is horribly broken, but rather than just ban it from play, we changed a few things and now it works very well for us.

Isn't that a less extreme solution than banning half of the game material from your table?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Have you ever seen what happens to a 13th level wizard who gets hit by a delayed blast fireball and quickened fireball in the same round? A 13th level Wizard can do this, and he doesn't need to be an Incantatrix.

A 13th-level wizard doing this has to give up his highest level spell slots to do so and time the delayed blast fireball perfectly. It's very difficult to do this in a surprise round.

Every prestige class gives a character an area of specialty where he is better than equivalent characters. That's the whole point of prestige classes. If they weren't better at the abilities they focus in, then why put up with the requirements, restrictions, etc of a prestige class?

Every prestige class is supposed to give up something, too, otherwise they're better in one area and... just as good everywhere else.

Of course it works. Lets say you take Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) as a Cleric so that you can do some of the power plays that have been mentioned before. First, you must take the Persistent Spell metamagic, and since that feat has such a ridiculous cost, you aren't likely to use it except with divine metamagic.

Persistent Spell can take a spell like divine favor and make it last all day. I'm not seeing a nice +5 luck bonus to all attack and damage rolls as being cheap. You want that kind of power? Pay for it.

So the orignal feat is pretty much a waste.

No it isn't

And you get to use the persistance, what, once a day? Woo hoo! That's worth two feats, especially when all it takes to ruin your "munchkin" fun is a dispel magic. And god knows, any spellcaster with half a brain has at least one of those prepared.

Dispel magic works about half the time, and IME a spellcaster is often too busy trying to survive or rescuing another party member to always be able to cast the spell they want

Even so, I've found when I make a buff Persistent, it usually lasts through two encounters, and it usually takes two dispel magics to get rid of it.

Now that is just plain false. Wizards need items and equipment as much as or more than anyone else. Sure a 17th level Wizard has a few hundred k to spend on items, but how much of that wealth do you think went just to his spellbooks? A spellbook library costs more than any warrior's "golfbag" of weapons!

A spellbook library is pretty cheap. You pay for some scrolls, and you pay some more gold to transfer extra spells. You get 2 spells per level for cheap (and more at 1st-level).

The metamagic rods are way too cheap. I'm amazed WotC thought that being able to cast a maximized meteor swarm before epic levels should be available with a non-epic item. They should boost the cost of those items by 10x to get the balance right.

Not to mention costly material components, staves, scrolls, wands, bracers of armor, ring of wizardry, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, headband of intillect, cloak of resistance, a golem bodyguard, etc etc etc.

You don't need most of those things to be effective - barring the ones everyone buys (eg almost everyone gets the ring, the cloak, the stat-boosting items, etc). I certainly hope you don't expect the wizard to get a golem bodyguard

The Wizard is the biggest money vaccuum of all the classes, bar none. I know this from personal experience because I like to play Wizards, and have also played just about everything else in this game at some point.

Same here, except the monk.

Now this is just unbelievable. After playing both the 3.0 and 3.5 Incantatrix, I can say that the 3.5 is unquestionably superior to its predecessor. In fact, we had to cut out all but one of the bonus feats just to make it more balanced. Not only does it get several incredibly powerful and useful abilities, it gets FOUR bonus feats! And the new abilities it has are much more useful and much more powerful than the abilities is lost (save the immunity to energy drain and death effects it had in 3.0).

I was talking about the errata to the 3.0 incantatrix. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.

In fact, what I'm about to say may shock you. The 3.5 Incantatrix is probably the most broken spellcasting prestige class in the game. But it's not broken because of Instant Metamagic, it's broken becasue it gets some of the coolest powers I've ever seen given to a spellcaster, and has four bonus feats on top of it. And the fact that metamgic effect and cooperative metamagic can each be used 3 + int bonus times per day leads to having so many free metamagics its mind boggling.

See above.

We cut out all but one of the bonus feats and made it 3 + int bonus total times per day for those abilities. Its much more balanced with those modifications.

Interesting how WotC has a huge playtesting staff, but it fell to you to playtest it again and balance it for your campaign. It's almost like you payed for something that was only half-done.

And here's another thought for you to consider. If you think something is broken, if you have tried and tested it and it just doesn't work for your game, rather than going to the extreme of banning it, why not just change it to make it more reasonable for you? If you really think that Instant Metamagic is broken, perhaps you can rule that it can't raise a spell above the normal maximum spell level

This is the sort of stuff I expected WotC to do - try to balance these things ahead of time. Otherwise I write options for my own campaigns, for free.

or you can make the character roll a Spellcraft check DC 18 + (3 x adjusted spell level), like the Metamagic Effect ability?

That would be way too easy to abuse.

If you don't think that the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight is clear enough, why not clarify it yourself? Like I said above, we think that the Incantatrix is horribly broken, but rather than just ban it from play, we changed a few things and now it works very well for us.

Isn't that a less extreme solution than banning half of the game material from your table?

For the amount of money you have to pay for the half-completed material and having to playtest nearly everything in the book again? No thanks. I'll do it myself (or rather, the players and I can sit down and come up with balanced options) rather than swallow something just because WotC printed it.

 

[rushlight]

And here's another thought for you to consider. If you think something is broken, if you have tried and tested it and it just doesn't work for your game, rather than going to the extreme of banning it, why not just change it to make it more reasonable for you? If you really think that Instant Metamagic is broken, perhaps you can rule that it can't raise a spell above the normal maximum spell level, or you can make the character roll a Spellcraft check DC 18 + (3 x adjusted spell level), like the Metamagic Effect ability? If you don't think that the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight is clear enough, why not clarify it yourself? Like I said above, we think that the Incantatrix is horribly broken, but rather than just ban it from play, we changed a few things and now it works very well for us.

Isn't that a less extreme solution than banning half of the game material from your table?

Bah. I've got better things to do that to fix all the broken crap WoTC keeps shoveling. I'm running a living world, with depth and history. If WoTC wants my money, they need to quit pandering uber abilities to the toybabies and put out something that is usable in an established campaign without 20 hours of houseruling. They are on the course to disaster, just like Skills and Powers from 2e. Trust me, I was there in the trenches during that horrible time. Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it.

 

[Thanee]

Sure a 17th level Wizard has a few hundred k to spend on items, but how much of that wealth do you think went just to his spellbooks? A spellbook library costs more than any warrior's "golfbag" of weapons!

That's not really correct. Get one Boccob's Blessed Book and the cost drops considerably!

Actually, BBB is pretty much required for every wizard.

...ring of wizardry...

No Wizard his right mind would buy one of those!

The Wizard is the biggest money vaccuum of all the classes, bar none.

Heh. Can't say I had the same trouble with money, but there are surely enough ways to spend a wizard's money!

Now this is just unbelievable.

Yet, it's true. Instant Metamagic got nerfed in the 3.0 errata.

After playing both the 3.0 and 3.5 Incantatrix, I can say that the 3.5 is unquestionably superior to its predecessor.

Really? I don't think so. The "permanent Death Ward" ability alone is easily worth as much as a good amount of the new abilities together.

Cooperative metamagic is nice, the other two (metamagic effect and the wand ability) seem to be almost useless so far. The takeover abilities at higher levels... can't really say how those turn out to be, but seem rather limited as well. The bonus feats are great, of course, altho as a wizard that's not too much gained, as they lose their own bonus feats.

Havn't found much use for metamagic effect yet and cooperative metamagic is basically only used to empower cure spells (never use it during combat, as casting a spell myself is almost always more effective), which is nice, but not really great. If I could switch all five 3.5 abilities for Hardy Spirit alone, that wouldn't be hard to drop the stuff.

The 3.5 Incantatrix is probably the most broken spellcasting prestige class in the game.

You havn't seen many of those, have you? Like the Dweomerkeeper or Ur-Priest, just to name two very prominent examples of broken-ness. The Incantatrix pales in comparison (not the 3.0 version, with all 3.0 stuff, especially stacking +1 level empowers, tho).

And the fact that metamgic effect and cooperative metamagic can each be used 3 + int bonus times per day leads to having so many free metamagics its mind boggling.

Free? I can only guess, that you have items that boost Spellcraft checks plus maybe feats, as I found these checks pretty tough so far even with maxed Spellcraft.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Now THAT I disagree with. The DM gets final call. If the DM says "No", that's it. Any player who insists that a book MUST be allowed is welcome to leave my game.

Wow. You sound fun to play with. I'm not talking about players insisting they be allowed to use what's in a book they buy. I'm talking about a DM who doesn't like something and then unilaterally bans an entire book. Somehow I truly doubt you've gone to the trouble of playtesting everything in a book that you've banned, yet you're ready to throw it out entirely. That's pathetic. At least talk to your players and try to work out some sort of compromise. Remember, it's you players' game too (and I know a lot of DMs have trouble realizing that fact).

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's pathetic.

Keep it civil, please.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a DM to call his game Core Rules Only. It means that players who don't spend a hundred bucks plus a month on supplements aren't disadvantaged - supplements are powerups, in general.

If the group as a whole are happy with it, that's fine. But if some people aren't - including the DM - then a blanket "Core only", or "Core only, except by special negotiation" is within the DM's rights.

-Hyp.