Divine Metamagic Feat

[Psiblade]

Rushlight, first I do not know a cleric that would give up a cloak of pro +5 for a cloak of chr +6. The cloak of pro +5 even costs less. I have played with a lot of high level clerics. Your saves are what keep you alive in a high level game. The high level game is filled with a large number of insta death effects. The cost of giving up +5 on saves that keep you alive for +6 on charisma is huge.

Unless a caster addresses spell resistance, immunities, and saves their spells are not worth much even if maximized. For example, a 15th level caster facing a EL 18 encounter with SR will face average SR of 28. That means only 35% of your spells will succeed. Two feats spell penetration and greater spell penetration increase effectiveness of spells to 55%. That is an increase in power of over 50%. This increase is for all spells in the encounter not just a couple.

The usefulness of turning does decrease as you level. For, the first eight levels turning is extremely useful as most undead are around you level in hd. As you go above that level A character that is built as a turner loses power over time. This feat is an attempt to restore some of that power. The feat can be used to create powerful effects that are dependent upon the opponent being vulnerable to the spell without spell resistance or immunities being in play. The character that chooses this feat in very limited in flexibility. Being very limited in flexibility means you are a one trick pony.

-Psiblade

 

[Zaruthustran]

The reason Divine feats exist is to allow clerics to turn an often useless commodity (turn attempts) into something useful (anything else). Players don't like to have unused abilities.

But I think people are missing one of the big combos for Divine Metagic. You pair it with Consecrate spell, on a cleric with the Good domain. Now, for the cost of 2 turn attempts you get a spell that's effectively Heightened +1 *and* has half damage as un-resistable divine damage. Neat.

-z

 

[Zaruthustran]

Being very limited in flexibility means you are a one trick pony.

A dead one trick pony.

-z

 

[Hypersmurf]

Rushlight, first I do not know a cleric that would give up a cloak of pro +5 for a cloak of chr +6.

A Paladin, on the other hand...

(Shame the Mysticism Domain doesn't grant Divine Grace any more )

-Hyp.

 

[James McMurray]

IDHTBWM. How does Divine Metamagic interact with Energy Substitution (and other 0 cost metamagics)?

 

[rushlight]

Rushlight, first I do not know a cleric that would give up a cloak of pro +5 for a cloak of chr +6. The cloak of pro +5 even costs less. I have played with a lot of high level clerics. Your saves are what keep you alive in a high level game. The high level game is filled with a large number of insta death effects. The cost of giving up +5 on saves that keep you alive for +6 on charisma is huge.

Unless a caster addresses spell resistance, immunities, and saves their spells are not worth much even if maximized. For example, a 15th level caster facing a EL 18 encounter with SR will face average SR of 28. That means only 35% of your spells will succeed. Two feats spell penetration and greater spell penetration increase effectiveness of spells to 55%. That is an increase in power of over 50%. This increase is for all spells in the encounter not just a couple.

The usefulness of turning does decrease as you level. For, the first eight levels turning is extremely useful as most undead are around you level in hd. As you go above that level A character that is built as a turner loses power over time. This feat is an attempt to restore some of that power. The feat can be used to create powerful effects that are dependent upon the opponent being vulnerable to the spell without spell resistance or immunities being in play. The character that chooses this feat in very limited in flexibility. Being very limited in flexibility means you are a one trick pony.

-Psiblade

So if you made a cleric, and your DM said, "You can have any item in the game.... except a cloak of protection" - would you just throw your hands up in the air? Would you say, "A cleric without a cloak of protection?!? Why, it's just not done man! That's not even possible! How can you even imply such a horrible thing??"

By the way, you do realize that the cleric gets the longest list of spells to choose from in the game, a good HD and good fighing ability? In fact, it's probably the most flexable class in the game. It makes a good spellcaster, a good fighter, and a good whatever else you need.

It's sad that you think the class only exists in the presence of a single item. You know, you sound like the exact kind of person I hope my rules keep away from my game. I know, people enjoy this game from many different angles, and I hope you continue playing and having fun for as long as you can. I just don't want people who sit around and think, "well, with feat X I'll get 15% more damage per swing, and at four swings per attack against monster Y I'll get a net 75% chance to kill it in the first turn. But if I take feat Z then I'll..."

It's that type of person who looks at a feat like Divine Metamagic and figures out how to squeeze the most possible damage in ways that a real person (who possessed that ability... like the character, if he was real) would never do. My objective is to run a world that feels as real as possible - complete with history, maps, backgrounds, and everything. I do alot of work to make it feel real for the players. I spend hours and hours to make their experience complete when playing my game. And a person who acts like you seem to just sucks every ounce of fun from the whole process. For that type of person, the work I do, and the depth I strive to provide is wasted - they couldn't care less. "Why are we fighting the nation of Brel? Who cares, I got a feat that lets me do 20% more damage from horseback. Let's get some horses." I want my players to have characters not "combat avatars".

So, not only do I avoid allowing broken feats and books into my game (to preserve the balance) but the absence of those broken toys keeps away the type of player who enjoys playing with them. It's a win-win scenario.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

To do 4 maximizes requires 16 turning attempts with divine metamagic. To get 16 turning requires at least two feats worth of extra turning, a 14 charisma, a cloak of chr +6, metamagic feat (maximize spell), and divine metamagic (maximize spell).

Yeah, he's a one-trick pony if he doesn't trade in his cloak. He could trade the cloak for a cloak of resistance and still get three maximizes, which he can, in turn, trade out for actual turning attempts if he feels like it.

The Extra Turning adds on to Divine Metamagic (Maximize Spell) letting you exceed your cap extra times. That's very powerful. It's definitely worth it.

The comment "they had 7 times to get this right" intrigues me. Where else is this feat (Divine Metamagic) found? Seven other places? Wow.

Metamagic rods (twice)
Red Wizard (twice)
Incantatrix (twice - they actually fixed it once, only to break it again)
Divine Metamagic

That adds up to seven. This isn't including PsiH 3.0 or epic stuff.

I decided to play with this feat a bit...and I'm forced to admit that is does, in fact, look broken with the RAW.

That's exactly what I was saying, and before you say it, I've already played with feats like this (as I've mentioned repeatedly).

Rushlight, first I do not know a cleric that would give up a cloak of pro +5 for a cloak of chr +6.

Character abilities > items. The cleric will be plenty broken even if you give him the cloak of resistance.

This feat is an attempt to restore some of that power.

Perhaps WotC could have looked at balanced feats like Divine Shield for inspiration, but instead they decided to crank the power up a lot more than was necessary.

But I think people are missing one of the big combos for Divine Metagic. You pair it with Consecrate spell, on a cleric with the Good domain. Now, for the cost of 2 turn attempts you get a spell that's effectively Heightened +1 *and* has half damage as un-resistable divine damage. Neat.

Is that from BoED? I didn't allow that book either, although it wasn't for balance reasons. (Actually I thought it was busted, but the premise of trying to balance RP penalties with metagame benefits is very flawed. RP penalties should match with RP benefits.)

So, not only do I avoid allowing broken feats and books into my game (to preserve the balance) but the absence of those broken toys keeps away the type of player who enjoys playing with them. It's a win-win scenario.

You are very quotable

 

[Hypersmurf]

Metamagic rods (twice)
Red Wizard (twice)
Incantatrix (twice - they actually fixed it once, only to break it again)
Divine Metamagic

That adds up to seven. This isn't including PsiH 3.0 or epic stuff.

Dweomerkeeper, from Complete Divine Web Enhancement:

Cloak of Mysteries (Su): At 10th level, a
dweomerkeeper is wrapped in a mantle of ever-flowing
magic, and all metamagic feats that she currently
knows or learns in the future become easier to use. The
spell level increase for applying a metamagic feat to any
spell drops by 1 (minimum +1 level, or +0 level if the
feat already has a +0 level adjustment). For example, a
quickened fireball uses a 6th-level slot (+3 levels)
instead of the usual 7th-level slot (+4 levels), but a silent
fireball still uses a 4th-level slot (+1 level). A spell
affected by the Heighten Spell feat is unaffected by this
ability.

-Hyp.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Is that from BoED? I didn't allow that book either, although it wasn't for balance reasons. (Actually I thought it was busted, but the premise of trying to balance RP penalties with metagame benefits is very flawed. RP penalties should match with RP benefits.)

Consecrate Spell is a metamagic from Complete Divine. At a cost of +1 spell slot, the spell gains the descriptor "Good". If it deals damage, half the damage is divine energy (like a Flamestrike) and therefore unresistable.

Since the Good domain lets you cast good spells at +1 caster level, Consecrate Spell is a great feat for Good domain clerics. It's also a cheap pairing for Divine Metamagic (only costs 2 turn attempts).

-z

 

[Zaruthustran]

Hello Stevelabny,
The groups I know are going by the RPGA ruling for Living Greyhawk in regards to this feat.

1.) You do not have to mem the spell in advance.

2.) You must have the original metamagic feat (silent spell) in order to take divine metamagic (silent spell).

3.) Yes, you can apply divine metamagic to a higher level spell than you could use the metamagic feat on.

The feat is nice for high charisma divine casters. Since the feat only applies to a single metamagic each time you take it, the power level is not that great.

-Psiblade

Where is it stated that this is how RPGA LG will handle the feat? The above rules are not in the latest LGCS...

-z