Divine Metamagic from Complete Divine Question?

[Trainz]

Can a cleric with Divine Metamagic feat apply a
metamagic effect to a spell whose level would ordinarily
too high to gain the metamagic effect from his metamagic
feat?
Yes—applying a metamagic effect in this manner has
effect on the spell’s level. For example, a 9th-level cleric with
Divine Metamagic (Empower Spell) could spend four
turn/rebuke undead attempts to empower a flame strike spell,
even though empowered flame strike would normally require
an 8th-level spell slot to cast.[/b]

That's a mistake. That's one turn, plus two for empower, total 3.

 

[Mistwell]

Indeed, Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell is when this feat becomes 100% broken. Doing it for Maximize is actually probably reasonable, at least in comparison.

You can see as a pretty common build on the WOTC Character Optimization Board of a Human Cleric with a relatively high charisma worshipping the Faerun Pantheon choosing Planning (free extend spell feat) and Undeath (free extra turning feat) as their domains, Divine Metamagic and Persistant Spell feats at first level, and extra turning for most future feats. Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, and Lesser Vigor all make excellent (AKA Broken) Persistant spells using divine metamagic to power them. Combined with a wooden weapon (like a darkwood morningstar) with Spikes cast on it (lasts pretty much all day), a heavy shield and plate armor with Magic Vestment on each (lasting pretty much all day), and you have everything you need lasting all day long to make you a much better melee fighter than the melee fighter in your party. Magic Item choices include the broken Prayer Beads: Karma Only (to increase the caster level of all of those Persistant spells you cast in the morning), and two rings of spellturning (I think that is what they are called), one of which has Dispel Magic in it, the other with Mort's Disjunction in it (to slow down your DM who will almost certainly send things against you to dispel those massive day-long buffs you have).

It's all very silly, very broken and overpowered, and fun to think about in a purely hypothetical gamesman type way. But no DM should ever let Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell in their game without a houserule to fix some of the more broken aspects (like not letting Divine Metamagic replace increased spell levels to the point where the spellcaster could not cast the spell but-for the turning attempts used).

 

[Aluvial]

It's all very silly, very broken and overpowered, and fun to think about in a purely hypothetical gamesman type way. But no DM should ever let Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell in their game without a houserule to fix some of the more broken aspects (like not letting Divine Metamagic replace increased spell levels to the point where the spellcaster could not cast the spell but-for the turning attempts used).

My point exactly....

BTW, I love ATHF....

Aluvial

 

[Philip]

I think its a stupid feat. Our DM outfitted a Cleric BBEG with this feat (combined with quicken). He came walking in while we were fighting his Ogre bodyguards.

First he cast Blasphemy (his highest level spell), auto-dazing most of the party members, then he followed up with a Quickened Blade Barrier (his second highest level spell) across some of the PCs. Since the dazed PCs could not get out of the way of the barrier they had to suffer it for two rounds, killing one. Next round he cast Harm followed up by a Quickened Inflict Critical Wounds: another PC killed. He was only 13th lvl, we were 11th. But with him pumping out two of his most powerful spells a round, it was like we were fighting two 13th lvl Clerics, but with the additional disadvantage that you were unable to act between the opponent's actions. The DM then decided to let the Cleric 'flee' because he could see a TPK coming.

It was the second time we met the Cleric, and the first time we set him running quite easily. The DM changed his feats slightly (added Divine Metmagic) to make him more of a challenge, and now he was suddenly changed in a TPK waiting to happen. The DM agreed to put the regular metamagic level limit on Divine Metamagic from that point on.

 

[Pinotage]

It's all very silly, very broken and overpowered, and fun to think about in a purely hypothetical gamesman type way. But no DM should ever let Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell in their game without a houserule to fix some of the more broken aspects (like not letting Divine Metamagic replace increased spell levels to the point where the spellcaster could not cast the spell but-for the turning attempts used).

I quote like the rule quoted above that only allows you to enhance spells to a level you can cast. Works for me, and it doesn't take you beyond the boundaries that normal pre-epic games were designed for.

With regard to Persistance Spell, I house ruled that ages ago that it simple increases the duration by one category, i.e. 1 round/level becomes 1 min/level becomes 10 min/level becomes 1 hour/level becomes 24 hours. Works well.

Pinotage

 

[Mistwell]

I quote like the rule quoted above that only allows you to enhance spells to a level you can cast. Works for me, and it doesn't take you beyond the boundaries that normal pre-epic games were designed for.

With regard to Persistance Spell, I house ruled that ages ago that it simple increases the duration by one category, i.e. 1 round/level becomes 1 min/level becomes 10 min/level becomes 1 hour/level becomes 24 hours. Works well.

Pinotage

I think that is a fine change to Persistant Spell. However, I think you might want to reduce the cost then as well, since increasing the spell level by +4 seems a bit steep for simply increasing the duration by one category. Maybe a +3 level?

 

[Aluvial]

Well I got a response from Wizards in two days time... I have to say I'm impressed. I wonder who Sammy is???

Hello there Sean,

Remember the errata regarding Divine Metamagic:

Page 80: Divine Metamagic feat
The boldface text needs to be added to the Benefit
paragraph of the feat description:
When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that
you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat.
As a free action, you can take the energy from turning
or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat
to divine spells that you know. . . .

They do break the original concept of metamagic as described in the PHB
on purpose. The Sudden feats can each be used only once per day, and
the Divine Metamagic can be used in a limited fashion based on turn
attempts per day. The cleric would have to use a precious feat to get
the prerequisite feat that his Divine Metamagic would emulate as well.
The limitations are built in to the feats.

Good gaming!

*Please quote this email in any reply*

***************************************************************
Sammy
Customer Service Department
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496
***************************************************************

I guess I'll take it from the horse's mouth.


BTW, has anyone ever tried calling that number on a rules question?

Aluvial

 

[Trainz]

BTW, has anyone ever tried calling that number on a rules question?

Aluvial

Well, I just did, and 'lo and behold, 30 seconds later I had a guy answering my rules questions.

Fascinating. That's customer support for you.

If you want to know more about that call, go check this thread, post #44

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=123432&page=2

 

[beaver1024]

I think its a stupid feat. Our DM outfitted a Cleric BBEG with this feat (combined with quicken). He came walking in while we were fighting his Ogre bodyguards.

First he cast Blasphemy (his highest level spell), auto-dazing most of the party members, then he followed up with a Quickened Blade Barrier (his second highest level spell) across some of the PCs. Since the dazed PCs could not get out of the way of the barrier they had to suffer it for two rounds, killing one. Next round he cast Harm followed up by a Quickened Inflict Critical Wounds: another PC killed. He was only 13th lvl, we were 11th. But with him pumping out two of his most powerful spells a round, it was like we were fighting two 13th lvl Clerics, but with the additional disadvantage that you were unable to act between the opponent's actions. The DM then decided to let the Cleric 'flee' because he could see a TPK coming.

It was the second time we met the Cleric, and the first time we set him running quite easily. The DM changed his feats slightly (added Divine Metmagic) to make him more of a challenge, and now he was suddenly changed in a TPK waiting to happen. The DM agreed to put the regular metamagic level limit on Divine Metamagic from that point on.

I TPKed my players with a similar strategy, except that I didn't even have Divine Metamagic at that stage. The cleric cohort to a wizard BBEG was 15th level, the average level of my player's party was 16th and the wizard BBEG was 17th level. The wizard BBEG died so easily it was laughable. However the cleric humble cohort coming to the rescue of her master and TPKed the party in 1 round with Bead of Karma, Orange Ioun stone, Evil domain and the ever broken Blasphemy.

Now I never use wiz/sorcs as BBEG, instead I use clerics and druids. Puts the fear of God into my players.

 

[apesamongus]

I think that is a fine change to Persistant Spell. However, I think you might want to reduce the cost then as well, since increasing the spell level by +4 seems a bit steep for simply increasing the duration by one category. Maybe a +3 level?

It's not even 4 anymore, it's been upped to +6 level.