Divine Ranks for Monstrous Deities

[Knightfall]

HERO/QUASI-DIETIES
There's no real need to debate what DvR these guys have - either it's 0, or they don't have one. Each one is presented in Monster Mytholgy, if you have it, and probably only in that book. Each could be a low-level god, or merely just an honored mortal that became the proxy of a god or something (maybe they are mentioned in Planescape products as such?)

The only thing to decide is should we give each of them a DR 0, or not.

Lafarallinn (elf)
Gnarldan Steelshield (dwarf)
Kaldair Swiftfoot (halfling)
Gerdreg (orc)

I would say that any being described as a Hero/Quasi-Deity should have a Divine Rank 0.

 

[BOZ]

actually, they weren't specifically described as "hero-dieties" or "quasi-dieites", but they were described in a gods-book, so thus the quesion over whether they were divine in the first place...

 

[Knightfall]

Also remember that the deities listed in the FRCS have been fleshed out in the Forgotten Realms sourcebook, Faiths and Pantheons. Also, make sure you check out the Deity Do's and Don't Web Enhancement for Faiths and Pantheons (see link).

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020504a

Cheers!

KF72

 

[Knightfall]

actually, they weren't specifically described as "hero-dieties" or "quasi-dieites", but they were described in a gods-book, so thus the quesion over whether they were divine in the first place...

Hmm, then it becomes a question if there has been any reference to them in 3rd Edition, whether i Dragon Magazine article or an offical product. If not then all you can do is use your best judgement. Perhaps using the Epic Level Handbook would be more appropriate for them.

KF72

 

[Knightfall]

BTW, BOZ do you have this file for v.3.5. Some things about deity stats have changed from v.3.0.

KF72

 

[Knightfall]

Here are the Ranks (D, L, I, or G) given for many of the Monster Deities, as per page 124 of Complete Divine.

Annam (G)
Blibdoolpoolp (I)
Callarduran Smoothhands (I)
Deep Sashelas (I)
Diirinka (I)
Eadro (I)
Great Mother (G)
Grolantor (I)
Hiatea (G)
Hruggek (I)
Iallanis (L)
Ilsensine (G)
Kaelthiere (I)
Laduguer (I)
Laogzed (D)
Maglubiyet (G)
Memnor (I)
Merrshaulk (I)
Panzuriel (I)
Sekolah (L)
Semuanya (L)
Shekinester (G)
Skoraeus Stonebones (I)
Sixin (I)
Skerrit (L)
Stronmaus (G)
Surtr (L)
Thrym (L)
Vaprak (D)

 

[Knightfall]

You'll also want to check out this thread on the Wizards.Community Boards.

Deity Stats - Avatars and all levels of Deities
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=197789

Besides the Forgotten Realms deities there are stats for the Elemental Gods, as well as for the Dwarf, Derro, Elf, Drow, Halfling, Gnome, Orc, Goblin, and Giant deities. Below are some of the rest of the categories:

Sylvan Pantheon
Bugbear Pantheon
Kobold Pantheon
Draconic Pantheon
Illithid Pantheon
Beholder Pantheon
Naga Pantheon
Deities of the Dark Folk (lycanthropes)
Sky Gods Pantheon
Deities of the Scalyfolk
Sea Gods Pantheon
Other Humanoid Deities
Archfiend Gods
Semi-divinities

+ Greek, Celtic, Vedic, Norse, Japanese, Aztec, and Native American.

whew... a lot of gods.

KF72

 

[Alzrius]

After these guys, I'll move on to working up old powers from sources other than Monster Mythology.

Woo hoo!

Urogalan (earth, death) N halfling god - creepy fellow. Worshipped by few, but revered by most. DR 3-4

I'm going to say 4 here. Halflings are a civilized race, and seem to venerate (if not worship) all of their gods. This would hold true for Urogalan, since he isn't an evil death god. Hence, he seems like he'd be one of the more powerful demigods.

Skiggaret (fear) CE bugbear god - half-mad god with no real followers - DR 2-4

Ordinarily I'd say 2, however, his entry in Monster Mythology says that he acts as the messenger of the other bugbear gods, and that they grant him power because of this. As such, I think that, given that and that he is sometimes worshipped in very desperate times, he should be DvR 3.

Gaknulak (protection, stealth, trickery, traps) LE kobold - the only kobold god besides Kurtulmak - DR 3-5

Actually, you're forgetting Dakarnok (from Dragon #63), but that's for another time. That said, this deity is extremely clever and pragmatic, and seems (to me) to embody the kobold spirit almost better than Kurtulmak does. I'd go for DvR 5 here.

Kuraulyek (urds) LE cowardly god of a small, mostly unknown race. DR 2-3

Definately a 2. This deity is afraid of his own shadow almost, and his race is minor at best. He is still their patron though, and his priests still do hunt down and kill urds that revere Kurtulmak, so he's more than a 1.

Stalker (hate, death, cold) NE god feared and not worshipped by goblinoids - DR 1-3

This one is difficult to peg. Stalker just wants to kill things, and isn't worshipped. The only deity he seems to have any remotely good relations with is Skiggaret. I'd have to say DvR 1 here, just because he seems uninterested in being worshipped to gain power.

Kiaransalee (undead, vengeance) CE drow goddess that once usurped Orcus' power! DR 4-5 for sure.

Strictly speaking, according to the City of the Spider Queen web enhancement, Kiaransalee is DvR 6 thanks to increased worship during Lolth's Silence. That said, that might be considered FR specific. Even so, she'd definately be DvR 5 before that.

Zinzerena (chaos, assassins) CE drow heroine turned goddess, DR 1-2 at most

DvR 1, to show how she's just barely made it to godhood (as it is, some FR supplements, such as Demihuman Deities say Lolth killed her and is pretending to be her now).

Diinkarazan (vengeance) CE derro god, lost and half-mad and bound to his throne in the Abyss - DR 1-3

Definately DvR 1. This god is either forgotten by the derro, or they hate him since when he dispatches an avatar (not that he could under the 3E D&Dg rules) all it does is destroy everything it can.

Diancastra (trickery, wit, impudence, pleasure) CG giant heroine turned goddess, daughter of Annam - DR 1-3

I think Diancastra should be DvR 5, actually. While she was a mortal before, she seems like an up and coming goddess. Many gods are on good terms with her (not just giant ones), and she seems popular (if not actively worshipped) among the good giants.

Gorellik (hunting, hyenas, hyenadons) CE gnoll god that has had his poition usurped by Yeenoghu - DR 2-4

DvR 2, I think. Gorellik is in decline, but not ready to expire yet.

Laogzed (eating) CE troglodyte god, half-demon spawn that lives only to eat, DR 3-5

I suppose 3 is appropriate for this god, since troglodytes seem to worship it despite it not really caring for them much.

Parrafaire (guardianship) CN naga god, DR 1-3

Again, I'd give this demigod DvR 5, simply because he acts in the interests of multiple gods, so many have an interest in him. This is especially true of his mother Shekinester, since she governs his avatars (in terms of power, number, etc).

Sess'innek ("civilization", dominion) CE demon lord that created the lizard kings (hey, weren't they featured in a recent book?) - DR 1-4

I'd say DvR 1. It says he was only recently able to grant spells, so it seems like he may have only just ascended to godhood.

Caoimhin (food, shy friendship) N killmoulis god, very shy and weak - DR 1 or maybe 2

I don't know what a killmoulis is, but if he is the patron of an entire race (no matter how small of one), then I'd say he should be at least DvR 2.

Fionnghuala (swanmays, communication, sorority) NG goddess - DR 4 or 5

I'd say she isn't as powerful as you're giving her credit for. Seems like a DvR 3 to me.

Squelachie (trickery, illusions) CN leprechaun god, the weakest deity in the Inner Circle of the Seelie Court - DR 4-5

It doesn't say in MM (that I saw) that he's the weakest god, but I wouldn't put him that close to Lesser God status either. I'd say DvR 3.

HERO/QUASI-DIETIES
There's no real need to debate what DvR these guys have - either it's 0, or they don't have one. Each one is presented in Monster Mytholgy, if you have it, and probably only in that book. Each could be a low-level god, or merely just an honored mortal that became the proxy of a god or something (maybe they are mentioned in Planescape products as such?)

Strictly speaking, the GH campaign has always defined a "quasi-god" as a mortal that has managed to gain a bit of divine power, but not enough to grant spells, while a "hero god" is the next rung up, lesser than a Demigod but able to grant spells. The 3E D&Dg, however, meshed the two terms together, saying both were synonyms for DvR 0 (which cannot grant spells).

Lafarallinn (elf)
Gnarldan Steelshield (dwarf)

Given that both of these heroes earned a well-deserved rest at the end of their tales of hardship, I'd say neither of these should have a divine rank. Lafarallin finally earned his rest with his beloved, and Gnarldan faded away in such a manner that his still being around seems antithetical to the tale.

Kaldair Swiftfoot (halfling)

On the other hand, Kaldair definately deserves to be DvR 0. There is no death or decline of the hero in his tale. While he does "go home, get married, and live happily ever after" to sum it up, it also says he sometimes wanders from home for a bit, which makes it seem like he could still be around doing things like that to this day.

Gerdreg (orc)

I don't think Gerdreg should have a divine rank either. Partly this is because he definately died at the end of his tale, and partly because he seems less of an ideal orc, as simply a medium for the idea of what orcs should be. That is, he's not so much a hero as someone who happened to be noteworthy because his life was so typical as to be archetypal.

 

[BOZ]

First of all, Knightfall, thank you for all that information. However, it is a hell of a lot of information, and it might take me awhile to get through it all to figure out what I need and what I already know, and what I want to throw out.

As for demi/lesser/intermediate/greater status changing between editions, I have decided to ignore that for the most part. Maybe I will change it later, on a case by case basis, if I can be brought to understand what changes were made and why, but for the most part I prefer to stick with what I know. besides, most of the gods stayed at the same level after the transition, so keeping the rest where they are is comfortable for me. If people wish to alter what I do in their own home campaigns, they may as always be my guest.

Definitely, thanks for the stat upgrade information; I did not already have that. And the writeups on the WotC boards will make interesting reading as we work on the stats for these gods on our own time.

KEEP IN MIND, for everyone: the DvR's that we have come up with at this time at NOT set in stone. They will be subject to change through discussion, as well as trial and error. The purpose of this thread was not to create a bible, so to speak, of divine ranks, but to set a guideline of relative power that we could look at and use properly when deciding who should be more powerful than whom.


Alzrius, I agree with most of your estimations and arguments, except:

Actually, you're forgetting Dakarnok (from Dragon #63), but that's for another time. That said, this deity is extremely clever and pragmatic, and seems (to me) to embody the kobold spirit almost better than Kurtulmak does. I'd go for DvR 5 here.

I'm not forgetting him: Dragon mag gods will be next. but yes, he should be lesser than Gaknulak, even if he is right behind at DR 4.

This one is difficult to peg. Stalker just wants to kill things, and isn't worshipped. The only deity he seems to have any remotely good relations with is Skiggaret. I'd have to say DvR 1 here, just because he seems uninterested in being worshipped to gain power.

I am agreeing with you here. DR 1 is more than enough power to do what he wants to do - anyone less than a more powerful god is going to get his ass kicked by the Stalker.

I think Diancastra should be DvR 5, actually. While she was a mortal before, she seems like an up and coming goddess. Many gods are on good terms with her (not just giant ones), and she seems popular (if not actively worshipped) among the good giants.

that, and as I made sure to point out, she is a daughter of Annam. I guess I can see your point and raise her to 5.

Again, I'd give this demigod DvR 5, simply because he acts in the interests of multiple gods, so many have an interest in him. This is especially true of his mother Shekinester, since she governs his avatars (in terms of power, number, etc).

same thing here with Parrafaire, again we are dealing with the progeny of a Greater god.

I don't know what a killmoulis is, but if he is the patron of an entire race (no matter how small of one), then I'd say he should be at least DvR 2.

pretty sure they're in Tome of Horrors, but I don't know that they've otherwise been converted to 3E yet. They're basically a harmless little Fey race (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/fey/killmoulis.htm ). I wouldn't dream of putting this guy higher than DR 2.

It doesn't say in MM (that I saw) that he's the weakest god, but I wouldn't put him that close to Lesser God status either. I'd say DvR 3.

it doesn't say that Squelachie is the weakest god in the Inner Circle (p 117, first paragraph), but by deduction he is the god of the lowest divine rank that is in Titania's must trusted group. This alone does not give him a DR of 4 or 5 like I suggested, but I figured it should account for something.

as for the Heroes/Hero-deities, I'm going to skip them. If you figure that maybe only one of them needs a divine rank, I might as well just not deal with any of them.

 

[BOZ]

any further comments on the demigods before i move on?