D&D 5E (2014) Divine smite paladin, infinite times pr round? And divine smite on ranged attacks?

[Xeviat]

I wouldn't have minded if smite was a bonus action and applied to the next hit, like the smite spells. I don't like novas.


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[S'mon]

Killed a 7th level Monk PC today with an Antipaladin type (Nualia from Rise of the Runelords) novaing 2 Smites & a Spiritual weapon attack in 1 round... The Cleric Revivified him later.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Sorry I should have stated thrown melee weapons, not ranged!
What I was thinking about as I wrote was javelins(or spears). But also dagger, light hammer and handaxe should apply!
So As far as I can tell these weapons should be able to to inflict divine smite and improved divine smite when thrown at an enemy?

That's half right. When thrown, these weapons are melee weapons making a ranged attack. In fact, that's what the "thrown" property means.

Thrown: If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the finesse property.

Improved Divine Smite works on attacks with melee weapons (sometimes called "melee-weapon attacks"), so it works when you throw your javelin. However, Divine Smite itself specifies a melee weapon attack, which means "not a spell attack and not a ranged attack", so it doesn't work with thrown javelins. Why not? Who knows? That's just how the rules work. As I said in post #8, one of the great deficiencies of 5E is that it creates these jargony distinctions but never explains the underlying fantasy physics creating the distinction.

As for smiting not to be the best idea always I agree. But on pure damage its great slot for slot compared to spells, because the paladins spells just arent that powerfull!Also if you use the slot for spells or smite, you still use it, so its more about the situation then the need for saving slots. As for better roleplaying on the other hand, im all for spells over smite!

Paladin spells are pretty cool IMO. Take Wrathful Smite, for example. Not only do you get a bit of extra psychic damage (1d6) out of it, you also have a chance of taking one enemy completely out of the fight. Frightened enemies can't move towards you and get disadvantage on all attack rolls and ability checks while you're in line of sight, including the ability check to overcome Wrathful Smite. And enemies with Wisdom save proficiency obviously don't get that bonus against the Wrathful Smite wisdom check, because it isn't a save. What this means in real life is that if the target fails the initial saving throw, the spell basically lasts for as long as your concentration does. All you have to do is step back a pace or two and now that enemy is completely unable to approach you until you lose concentration--if it doesn't have spells or missile weapons it has no real option but to flee.

Or compare Thunderous Smite to Divine Smite. You can either do 9 points of damage with Divine Smite, or do 7 points of damage with Thunderous Smite and knock the enemy away and prone (Strength save to avoid). Unless you were doing something else with your bonus action already, or you're fighting something so horrendously strong that it will never fail the save, or you're in a ranged-heavy party and want enemies not to go prone to make them easier to hit, you'd pretty much always rather Thunderous Smite than Divine Smite.

Don't even get me started on how Smiting 3rd level spell slots (18 points of damage) is vastly inferior to healing 70 points of damage with Aura of Vitality. (140 points of healing if you're a Paladorc w/ Extended Spell.) 70 points of damage is probably more damage than the monster does in two full rounds, which means it's like buying two rounds of at-will attacks from everyone in the party. That ought to be 100 points of damage or more, which is way better than 18 points of damage.

 

[Dualazi]

Yes, sorry, I meant "thrown melee weapons." You're right that there exist thrown ranged weapons, and those weapons would not benefit from Improved Divine Smite, under the rules as written.

(One of the great deficiencies of 5E is that it doesn't explain WHY distinctions like this exist, which leaves the DM in the position of ignoring the rule or making up some bogus rationalization to support the opaque rule. "Why does Improved Divine Smite work with a thrown dagger, but Divine Smite does not?" "Because one works with melee-weapons attacks, and the other works with melee weapon attacks, and those aren't the same thing" is not a satisfying answer. Any time you have to revert to game jargon to explain how the world works, you're metagaming, not roleplaying, and it is disruptive.)

I agree with this. I was sad to find that I couldn't build an outlander themed bow paladin and make use of my smiting capabilities, which I can't find much justification for. My gut reaction is that they thought bowadins might overshadow rangers, especially with paladin of vengeance being able to snag hunter's mark, but if that is the case, i would rather they have changed it in such away as to make ranged smites a thing.

 

[rczarnec]

Or compare Thunderous Smite to Divine Smite. You can either do 9 points of damage with Divine Smite, or do 7 points of damage with Thunderous Smite and knock the enemy away and prone (Strength save to avoid). Unless you were doing something else with your bonus action already, or you're fighting something so horrendously strong that it will never fail the save, or you're in a ranged-heavy party and want enemies not to go prone to make them easier to hit, you'd pretty much always rather Thunderous Smite than Divine Smite.

Or you are concentrating on a spell and don't want to lose it for a smite spell (which are also concentration). The problem with smite spells is that they are concentration and would force you to drop (or never be able to use) many of the best Paladin spells.

 

[Guest 6801718]

Yeah, paladins can smite as many times as they hit if they have the spell slots. Though some of those paladin spells are pretty handy. Plus you never know what's coming your way next. So dropping all your smites on that ogre may mean you're in trouble when that dragon comes around. Plus the utility of some of those paladin spells isn't something to be overlooked. What if you need a magic weapon in a pinch? I actually managed to stop a bugbear from sounding the alarm in one of their strongholds with the command spell. It was just on the edge of my casting range when it noticed us. I beat it in initiative and kept it from sounding the alarm. Then the party pounced on it and took it out. Having smites be fueled by spells means that there is always a choice to make with your resources. You can have big damage when you need it or you can have some utility. It's up to you to choose what you need when. So I find smites pretty balanced. I play a vengeance paladin currently and I find that I'm usually debating a little between a smite and a spell I have at the ready. It's a limited resource split between two class features.

 

[Blue]

It's important to realize that smiting is usually a bad idea compared to using the same slots to actually cast spells. Divine Smite is basically "break glass in case of emergency" nova capability; it's not something you should rely on normally. A 10th level Paladin has a maximum 112 HP.5 worth of Divine Smites per day even if he casts zero other spells, but he's going to have to inflict 300 to 400 points of damage on a normal, full adventuring day. He definitely doesn't have enough slots to just power through the whole day smiting everything.

It is important to realize that smiting is a great idea and should be used in addition to spells. Smite Spells take a bonus action which may or may not be available depending on your build and the circumstances. Smites take no action, just a hit. Smite spells usually have nifty status effects which are great(!) but do a bit less damage. They also are concentration so you can't keep up other concentration spells.

If you use a Smite spell, you can still use a divine smite as well. If you hit more than once in a round, smite can dd to all of them. Killing foes quicker is usually worth spending resources on.

If you end they day with extra spell slots and you had a chance to use them, you likely let foe(s) get an extra action(s) against the party which means other resources are used up.

Apportion them as you feel will do the best, be it using them early to save other character's resources like healing as well and making sure they aren't wasted, or use them sparingly and save them for more dangerous fights if you are sure they are coming. But there is no bonus for having slots left over so cast spells and use divine smites.

 

[Blue]

I wouldn't have minded if smite was a bonus action and applied to the next hit, like the smite spells. I don't like novas.

Then just nix divine smite altogether since the paladin can already do this with Smite spells.

As a side note, this also removes the viability from builds that need the bonus action, such as a two-weapon paladin, a polearm paladin, etc.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Or you are concentrating on a spell and don't want to lose it for a smite spell (which are also concentration). The problem with smite spells is that they are concentration and would force you to drop (or never be able to use) many of the best Paladin spells.

Absolutely, yes. Good point.

 

[jasper]

So the paladin have its limited usages of smite. But say the pally has 2 attacks and halberd feat so 3 attacks. And if lucky get the reaction attack aswel thats 4 attacks that round. Can he add smites to all those 4 attacks? So using 4 spell slots and have a huge attack total?

Wondering since casters has some issues wiht spell uage and cannot seem to cast both a action spell and a bonus action spell in the same round? Pg 202 PH:
"BONUS ACTIONAspell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You
must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell,
provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action
this turno Vou can't cast another spell during the same
turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of I action."

Now I understand divine smite issent a spell and a whery finite resource, but it feels a bit off in damage potensiell.

If all the paladin does is Divine Smite he only got 15 total at 20th level. So starting with heavy smiting. In your case he does 10d8 for his all 5th level slots and 10d8 for 4th level slots for round 1. Round 2 he does 5d8 for his first attack (4th level slot) and 12d8 for all this 3rd slots. Round 3 he first 3 attacks 9d8 and one first level slot for 2d8. Round 4 he smites of 6d8 for his first 3 attacks and has no more smites left.