Divine Trickster PrC

[Khaalis]

DIVINE TRICKSTER
The divine trickster is simply a divine adaptation of the core arcane trickster, designed to allow for a divine caster/rogue combination as well as an arcane caster/rogue combination.
Hit Die: d6
Requirements
To qualify to become a divine trickster, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any nonlawful
Skills: Decipher Script 6, Disable Device 6, Escape Artist 6, Hide 8, Knowledge (religion) 4, Move Silently 8
Spells: Ability to cast divine spells of 3rd level or higher
Special: Sneak attack +2d6
Class Skills
The divine trickster’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Table: The Divine Trickster
Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1st	+0	+0	+2	+2	Ranged legerdemain 1/day;   +1 level of existing class
2nd	+1	+0	+3	+3	Sneak attack +1d6;   +1 level of existing class
3rd	+2	+1	+3	+3	Impromptu sneak attack 1/day;   +1 level of existing class
4th	+3	+1	+4	+4	Sneak attack +2d6;   +1 level of existing class
5th	+3	+1	+4	+4	Ranged legerdemain 2/day;   +1 level of existing class
6th	+4	+2	+5	+5	Sneak attack +3d6;   +1 level of existing class
7th	+5	+2	+5	+5	Impromptu sneak attack 2/day;   +1 level of existing class
8th	+6	+2	+6	+6	Sneak attack +4d6;   +1 level of existing class
9th	+6	+3	+6	+6	Ranged legerdemain 3/day;   +1 level of existing class
10th	+7	+3	+7	+7	Sneak attack +5d6;   +1 level of existing class

Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the divine trickster prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Divine tricksters gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Spells per Day: When a new divine trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a divine trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

Ranged Legerdemain: A divine trickster can perform one of the following class skills at a range of 30 feet: Disable Device, Open Lock, or Sleight of Hand. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and a divine trickster cannot take 10 on this check. Any object to be manipulated must weigh 5 pounds or less. A divine trickster can use ranged legerdemain once per day initially, twice per day upon attaining 5th level, and three times per day at 9th level or higher. He can make only one ranged legerdemain skill check each day, and only if he has at least 1 rank in the skill being used.

Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th). If a divine trickster gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

Impromptu Sneak Attack: Beginning at 3rd level, once per day a divine trickster can declare one melee or ranged attack he makes to be a sneak attack (the target can be no more than 30 feet distant if the impromptu sneak attack is a ranged attack). The target of an impromptu sneak attack loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, but only against that attack. The power can be used against any target, but creatures that are not subject to critical hits take no extra damage (though they still lose any Dexterity bonus to AC against the attack). At 7th level, a divine trickster can use this ability twice per day.


Thoughts?

 

[Darklone]

Too strong. The cleric class (especially with Trickster domain) already gives more nice synergies and fighting power to a rogue as compared to the AT.

Examples: More hitpoints, better BAB, casting in armour.

I would cut one more level of spell progression or make sneak attack progression much slower (e.g. +1d6 all three levels).

 

[Khaalis]

Interesting that you say that. I dont see the difference between the clerical and arcane versions.

Do you realize that you can make a Cleric fit the Arcane Trickster as-is? Its just a bit of a chore but can be done.

Also the base Arcane Trickster can easily have arcane classes with Casting in Armor ability etc. as well: Bard, War Mage, and Battle Sorcerer off the top of my head. Also note that as has been pointed out to me repeatedly - "Arcane spells are more powerful than Divine spells".

Also where does the Cleric synergy with the Rogue? A cleric/rogue to be decent with anything other than the social skills has to give up their heavy armor, their BAB's are the same Not better as you stated, HP are an average of 1 extra HP per level (and the Trickster keeps the same premise as the original version and reduces HD to the lowest denominator - back to Rogue HD), and they suffer a huge loss in skill points. The cleric does not give the rogue better combat abilities. Even if the cleric were a "War" cleric with destruction and war domains - they still dont add as much prowess to a rogue as they take other things away from it.

Cleric does not normally synergy a Rogue, it is a detriment to a Rogue as a combination and thus why it is done so rarely. However, most worlds offer a deity of Thieves and this is a perfect template for them. If an arcane caster can do it, why can't a divine? Why is this more powerful than a Wizard/Rogue Arcane Trickster? Keep in mind that the Arcane version is much more deadly as they get MANY more spells than clerics do that can gain the addition of their Sneak Attack damage.

Which would you rather face? A Cleric/Rogue/Divine Trickster or a BattleSorcerer/Rogue/Arcane Trickster? I'd take the DT any day. They just dont have the 30' ranged spells that an Arcane caster has. A simple Scorching Ray from a 10th level Arcane Trickster does 11d6 Damage to up to 3 targets at once (or worse... 33d6 to one target). A Cleric cant ever come close to this kind of power.

 

[UltimaGabe]

One thing I'd like to point out is more of a Flavor and Basic Concept thing than a Balance issue- one of the main prerequisites for being an Arcane Trickster is that you must be able to cast Mage Hand. This is the entire concept behind their Ranged Legerdemain- true, they don't actually expend uses of MAge Hand to use this ability, but that's the basic core concept of the entire ability. Clerics gain no access to the Mage Hand spell at all, and therefore I don't think that Ranged Legerdemain should be included at all. I'd suggest giving them something else in exchange- I mean, it's not a balancing factor at all, it's just that Clerics don't fit the character design at all, as they don't gain any access to Telekinetic spells.

 

[Khaalis]

One thing I'd like to point out is more of a Flavor and Basic Concept thing than a Balance issue- one of the main prerequisites for being an Arcane Trickster is that you must be able to cast Mage Hand. This is the entire concept behind their Ranged Legerdemain- true, they don't actually expend uses of MAge Hand to use this ability, but that's the basic core concept of the entire ability. Clerics gain no access to the Mage Hand spell at all, and therefore I don't think that Ranged Legerdemain should be included at all. I'd suggest giving them something else in exchange- I mean, it's not a balancing factor at all, it's just that Clerics don't fit the character design at all, as they don't gain any access to Telekinetic spells.

I have one small little argument to your logic here. Take it with a grain of salt, its not meant to be insulting. I am just taking the devil's side on this one.

Argument = They are clerics. They receive divinly granted powers.

Arcane casters dont. For an arcane caster, Legerdemain is an extension of learning how to use Mage Hand and that makes perfect sense for THEM - arcane casters learn their abilities through practice and spells. it makes sense that spell-like and supernatural abilities grow as extensions of previously learned skills.

That is just completely not so for a cleric. Clerics are Granted their powers, they dont "learn" them in the fasion arcane casters do. In fact, clerics are granted arcane spells in many of their domains, as well as arcane spell-like and supernatural abilities in many of the clerical PrCs. "Ranged Legerdemain" is also defined as a Supernatural ability of which clerics can gain almost any (Su) ability you can think of if it relates to their deity.

Also, why Dont clerics fit the Trickster design? Are you saying you cant have Rogue/Clerics? What about the Patron Rogue Deities: Olidammara, Nerull, Garl Glittergold, Vergadain, Erevan Ilesere, Mask, Brandobaris, Cyric, Shargaas, Loki, etc.... None of these deities of Thieves, Thievery, Mischief and Murder would grant such a power??

Sorry but that just doesnt make sense to me.

 

[UltimaGabe]

That's true. Clerics could theoretically gain whatever abilities their deity wants them to. However, none of them do. Regardless of their deities, no non-house ruled non-variant Clerics have access to Mage Hand or Telekinesis. I'm not saying that it's impossible for them to do so within the realm of House Rules (which this is), but don't try and base or compare anything from this class on anything core solely on the idea that a House Rule *could* be possible.

I'm not saying you can't go and make your class do whatever you want, I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense within the core rules.

 

[Khaalis]

Within what core rules? I am just not seeing your point I guess.

Mage Hand is a prerequisite for Arcane Casters because it makes sense to be for flavor. However, there is nothing in the Legerdemain ability that specifically states that it is a Telekinetic spell-like ability. It specifically says it is a "unique talent" and that it is Supernatural in origin. It doesnt say it uses mage hand, nor does it require the casting of the spell. It is a "flavor" requirement for arcane casters to show a "growth" in their abilities to give the "reason" for the abilities existence in the class to make sense for someone of the arcane persuasion. Divine casters dont have to worry about that. The PrC can grant them any related ability and it makes sense. Not so for arcane casters. Everything they get in PrC's has to built off of something else they can do.

Also, if arcane and divine are as seperatist as you describe, why can some clerics cast invisibility or Stone Skin or any of the other dozens of normally "Arcane" spells? Clerics aren't arcane casters but some clerics can use arcane spell completion and spell trigger items. How? Why? They have no arcane training... but its a granted ability. In the same light, clerics are granted "out of class" and even "out of race" abilities all the time. So why wouldnt a cleric be able to learn Ranged Legerdemain?

I dont see any reason yet stated as to why a Cleric/Rogue could not be a Trickster.

(PS: On a side note, I am not arguing the point for any love of the ability - just for the logic of the statements. I personally think its a pretty crappy ability that wastes class levels, but the build is meant to be a direct mirror of the Core DMG version [for those "balance purists"], which by the DMG's own statement is nothing more than a guideline and example. In all reality I think the idea should be tweaked to a Specialist Cleric PrC by religion - of which I have the Mask version posted on the WotC FR Boards.)