DarkJester
First Post
I seem to remember a divine trickster type prestige class (clerical casting + sneak attack), possibly with the that very name, but I can't seem to remember where I found it. Can anyone help me out here?
Divine Trickster?
- Thread starter DarkJester
- Start date
Sound of Azure
Contemplative Soul
It's in Races of Stone, and designed for Gnomes. There's also one on Rich Burlew's site that's pretty cool.
There's also a Divine + Rogue class in Complete adventurer (the Shadowbane Stalker), but it's more geared toward stealthy elimination of evil, rather than trickery.
If you go for any of these ideas, I highly recommend using the Cloistered Cleric variant from Unearthed Arcana (also found in the SRD here ). The skill points are invaluable, although you'll fall behind on base attack a little if you take more than a few levels. Since you get the Knowledge domain for free, you'll be an excellent scout and diviner. Celerity and Trickery are good domains to have, as is the Gnome domain (if you're a gnome, of course).
There's also a Divine + Rogue class in Complete adventurer (the Shadowbane Stalker), but it's more geared toward stealthy elimination of evil, rather than trickery.
If you go for any of these ideas, I highly recommend using the Cloistered Cleric variant from Unearthed Arcana (also found in the SRD here ). The skill points are invaluable, although you'll fall behind on base attack a little if you take more than a few levels. Since you get the Knowledge domain for free, you'll be an excellent scout and diviner. Celerity and Trickery are good domains to have, as is the Gnome domain (if you're a gnome, of course).
DarkJester
First Post
Anyone else have opinions on Burlew's creation shown in the link above? This is more along the lines of what I had in mind but it is pretty chalk full of goodness.
starwed
First Post
Glancing over it, is seems mostly ok. The only thing that seems over the top is the unrestricted HiPS ability; it might be better to either remove that, or have it use up one turn undead attempt.
You might want to add to the prereqs to prevent double dipping sneak attack from 2 classes.
You might want to add to the prereqs to prevent double dipping sneak attack from 2 classes.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Yeah, Rich's class is on the "too" side of strong. The basics are fine, and his reasoning is sound, but then he goes and messes it up.
Basically, he's justifying early entry, better HD and better class abilities by saying that Wisdom and Rogue roles aren't synergistic -- but then at 3rd level, suddenly it is. (And why is Spellcraft in there?!) He says that Rogues lose out on high-level abilities, but then they get free Hide in Plain Sight and Slippery Mind (!!). Oh, and they can sneak attack the undead.
Going off the Arcane Trickster model, I'd allow his Divine Trickster, but not give ANY of his odd-level abilities -- some of which are duplicated by spells now anyway. Instead, I'd give:
1: Domain Flexibility 1/day
2: Sneak Attack +1d6
3: Improved Guidance 1/day
4: Sneak Attack +2d6
5: Domain Flexibility 2/day
6: Sneak Attack +3d6
7: Improved Guidance 2/day
8: Sneak Attack +4d6
9: Domain Flexibility 3/day
10: Superior Guidance, Sneak Attack +5d6
Domain Flexibility (Su): Once per day, the Divine Trickster can convert any prepared spell into a Domain spell of the same level or lower. The target spell need not be prepared that day. Later, you can do this more often.
Improved Guidance (Su): When you cast guidance and use the bonus on an Open Locks or Disable Device check, you gain a bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier instead of +1.
Superior Guidance (Su): This ability replaces Improved Guidance. When you cast guidance, and expend a Turn Undead attempt, and use the bonus on a Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks or Disable Device check, you gain a bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier instead of +1.
The Cleric list isn't that bad. It's really really good if you intend to be a melee guy -- and a TWF divine power Divine Might sneak-attack monkey would be high holy hell to flank against.
Cheers, -- N
Basically, he's justifying early entry, better HD and better class abilities by saying that Wisdom and Rogue roles aren't synergistic -- but then at 3rd level, suddenly it is. (And why is Spellcraft in there?!) He says that Rogues lose out on high-level abilities, but then they get free Hide in Plain Sight and Slippery Mind (!!). Oh, and they can sneak attack the undead.
Going off the Arcane Trickster model, I'd allow his Divine Trickster, but not give ANY of his odd-level abilities -- some of which are duplicated by spells now anyway. Instead, I'd give:
1: Domain Flexibility 1/day
2: Sneak Attack +1d6
3: Improved Guidance 1/day
4: Sneak Attack +2d6
5: Domain Flexibility 2/day
6: Sneak Attack +3d6
7: Improved Guidance 2/day
8: Sneak Attack +4d6
9: Domain Flexibility 3/day
10: Superior Guidance, Sneak Attack +5d6
Domain Flexibility (Su): Once per day, the Divine Trickster can convert any prepared spell into a Domain spell of the same level or lower. The target spell need not be prepared that day. Later, you can do this more often.
Improved Guidance (Su): When you cast guidance and use the bonus on an Open Locks or Disable Device check, you gain a bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier instead of +1.
Superior Guidance (Su): This ability replaces Improved Guidance. When you cast guidance, and expend a Turn Undead attempt, and use the bonus on a Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks or Disable Device check, you gain a bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier instead of +1.
The Cleric list isn't that bad. It's really really good if you intend to be a melee guy -- and a TWF divine power Divine Might sneak-attack monkey would be high holy hell to flank against.
Cheers, -- N
There's the Temple Raider of Olidammara, though that has its own spell progression instead of a "+1 level of divine casting class".
I suppose it wouldn't be too much to change that to "+1 level of divine casting class" every even level of the PrC, if you insist upon furthering your clerical casting.
I suppose it wouldn't be too much to change that to "+1 level of divine casting class" every even level of the PrC, if you insist upon furthering your clerical casting.
DarkJester
First Post
I really like Rich's trickster as is as far as abilities go. What do you think would balance the class? Losing a caster level at 1st and also at 7th?
Salthorae
Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
I'm an admitted powergamer by preference, but I really don't see Rich's Divine Trickster as too powerful. I'm confused by some of what you say Nifft:
)
How? Bluff & Hide req's of 9 ranks, Sneak Attack of 2d6 (Rog3), and 2nd level divine spells from Specific Domains (Chaos, Luck, or Trickery) & Turn Undead (Cle3). These all say you have to be 6th level before you can take it.Nifft said:
d6 is a loss from straight cleric...
What you get:
- Wis bonus to magical trap related skills
- the Feat (normally Extraordinary ability as a feat) Domain Spontaneity for one of the Prereq domains to the class
- Ability to Sneak Attack Undead: by using a Turn undead attempt & it lasts 1rd/pt of Charisma modifier. If you're focusing on Dex and Wis as a Rog/Cle, Cha prolly isn't high. So not many Turn attempts/day and not long on the duration for this ability. In actuality with Base stats (Cha12-15)? Probably 4-5 time's/day for a duration of 1-2 rounds, you'd be luck to get on the upper end of that with a Point Buy for Stats considering you have to focus on Dex and Wis...
- Hide in Plain sight (1st level ability of a Shadowdancer, which you have to be 7th level to qualify for, so you can HiPS at the exact same level as a 1st level Shadowdancer if you optimise, woohoo!)
- Slippery Mind: one of the Rogue Special Abilities, but as an Su, not a Ex as normal. Plus as a straight Rogue you can get Slippery Mind at Level 10, here you get it earliest at level 15)
)
What you lose if you go Cle3/Rog7/DT10:
- You drop from 8+Int to 4+Int for skills for 10 of the 20 levels, plus the levels of Cle at 2+Int
- Access to the higher Rogue abilities (Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trapsense over +2, and the whole rest of the other Rog Special Abilities except Slippery Mind,*Sneak attack is same +9d6 over all for 17th level Rog'ish char)
- Access to Cle spells over 7th level (and unless you have a 24 Wisdom, you're only getting 2 at that level per day too)
- Another 4 levels of the 8+Int for skill pts down to 4+Int
- Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense over +1, and 2d6 of Sneak Attack over all (+7d6 total @ 20th)
Because cleric's can cast spells?
Free as opposed to...?
Yeah, sometimes, for a little bit, see above for why I think it's cool, but not overly powerful.
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