Divine Trickster?

[Kae'Yoss]

Arcane spells are just plain better than divine (look at the bonuses a cleric gets vs wizard: better BAB, saves, armor, weapons).

Huh? Arcane spells are better than divine spells in some aspects (blowing things apart), but not in everything, and they surely aren't just plain better.

In fact, the kind of spell a cleric gets is quite useful for the roguish fighter - Early hold person for better sneak attacks, and spells like divine favour, divine power and righteous might to become better in melee (and do more sneak attacks). Note that divine power grants you a BAB equal to your character level, so the divine trickster (with multiclassing) will draw even with a fighter.

Plus, the inflict wounds spells are nice with sneak attack (and a sneaky harm from a divine trickster with practised spellcaster outright scares me!)

 

[Nifft]

Re-reading what I wrote, I'd say you're correct, they do convey a tone. I'm sorry for that, as it wasn't my intention. I have trouble correctly conveying tones in real conversation, online is only worse Sorry Nifft!

Apology accepted. It is equally hard to read tone Part of why I'm forced to not be my usual sarcastic self online...

Also on the second snippet, that really should have said something more like this in my original post to convey what I really wanted it to: "I'm genuienely curious... are there Halfing substitution levels that would help with entry into this PrC at 6th level? Because last time I checked they only allow..."

The Halfing Rogue's 1st level grants +2d6 sneak attack under certain circumstances. That's been interpreted (by some) to qualify as +2d6 sneak attack. (I personally consider this an abuse, but keep it in the back of my mind, because RAW it might just work.)

You can always take Scout 1 / Rogue 1 (for +1d6 skirmish and +1d6 sneak attack), since most PrCs say that you can count skirmish & sudden strike as sneak attack, that's one level earlier than with Rogue 3. Ninja 1 / Rogue 1 might be better for the Wisdom synergy, though. Anyway.

If you're still interested in the Divine Trickster from OotS, but you feel it's over powered, any of the suggestions put forth already should do the trick to bring it down a peg, drop some caster levels and HiPS (throw in Uncanny/Imp. Uncanny Dodge), limit the uses/day Like Nifft suggested earlier to make it more comparable to the Arcane Trickster

IMHO the big thing that's wrong with the DT is using a lot of powerful class abilities to compensate for his genuine failings.

1/ Not enough skill points. Just fix this directly -- give the poor Wis-based dude either 6 or 8 base skill points per level. Won't break anything.

2/ Poorly meshed spell list. Just fix this directly -- give the poor guy cat's grace and a few more specific spells as Cleric spells, which use his regular spellcasting resources.

3/ Given the better melee capabilities of a Rogue / Cleric, I could see Uncanny Dodge being much better in theme (while also being weaker -- i.e. much more appropriate). Good call.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Salthorae]

What about dropping Domain Flexibility (in the vien of Dex/Cle) to be 1/Point of Dex Modifier/Day? Maybe like the Surprise the Dead class feature, you could tie Domain Flexibility to Cha also (which would likely limit it to 1-2/day).

Throw Uncanny/Imp Uncanny, raise skills from 4 to 6+Int. Then it retains the flavor but reigns in the power

 

[brehobit]

Huh? Arcane spells are better than divine spells in some aspects (blowing things apart), but not in everything, and they surely aren't just plain better.

They are different certainly. But that a cleric gets so much more than a wizard implies that the general sense is that arcane spells are considerably better on the whole.

The touch attack cause spells can be scary, but you can't get iterative attacks. Plus consider the rogue 3/cleric 3 vs. the cleric 6. The 3/3 does: 2d8+3 damage from the spell (save for half) +2d6 (if sneak attacking). Assuming the save is made 1/2 the time (about right) that's 16 points of damage on the average. The cleric 6 does 3d8+6 with his best spell. That's about 15 points of damage and you don't need to be in the sneak attack situation.

In fact, the kind of spell a cleric gets is quite useful for the roguish fighter - Early hold person for better sneak attacks, and spells like divine favour, divine power and righteous might to become better in melee (and do more sneak attacks). Note that divine power grants you a BAB equal to your character level, so the divine trickster (with multiclassing) will draw even with a fighter.

Sure. Clerics are great buffers. But I still think arcane spells will do a lot better here (good ranged touch attacks with the orb spells, web, etc.)

 

[Nifft]

Sure. Clerics are great buffers. But I still think arcane spells will do a lot better here (good ranged touch attacks with the orb spells, web, etc.)

I see them as different roles, but not different levels of effectiveness.

Wizard = arcane sniper, dealing Sneak Attack damage with rays while invisible.
Cleric = buffed combat guy, dealing Sneak Attack damage while flanking in melee.

The Cleric can use armor (albeit light to not interfere with Evasion, or heavy if he doesn't care). The Cleric has access to divine power. What more do you need?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

What about dropping Domain Flexibility (in the vien of Dex/Cle) to be 1/Point of Dex Modifier/Day? Maybe like the Surprise the Dead class feature, you could tie Domain Flexibility to Cha also (which would likely limit it to 1-2/day).

Throw Uncanny/Imp Uncanny, raise skills from 4 to 6+Int. Then it retains the flavor but reigns in the power

You know, if we just tied everything to Turn Undead attempts, he'd at least have a limited resource to manage.

Surprise for the Dead: Swift action, lasts 1 round, costs a Turn Undead attempt.
Trap Guidance: Swift action, lasts 1 round, costs a Turn Undead attempt.
Domain Flexibility: Swift action, lasts while you cast one spell, costs a Turn Undead attempt.

I think we could do better than those class abilities, but as long as there's a reasonable limit to their use, the class is more balanced.

I'd only give Uncanny Dodge. Rogue 4 would improve this to Improved Uncanny Dodge, so let's leave that as a viable (if perhaps sub-optimal) option.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Zaruthustran]

Is there a feat that mixes the abilities of both classes, similar to the Daring Rogue (Complete Scoundrel; rogue and swashbuckler levels stack for Grace and Sneak Attack)?

I'm thinking something like Devoted Scoundrel: rogue and cleric levels stack for Sneak Attack and Turn Undead ability.

-z

 

[Salthorae]

The Cleric has access to divine power. What more do you need?

Divine Metamagic (Extend Spell) so Divine Power doesnt' run out in the middle of battle? ...Divine Favor never hurt the combat of any cleric either

I agree they are different roles, but (and this is a whole different can of worms) if Arcane spells weren't overall better than Divine ones RAW(Core) then why did they maintain the cleric's good armor,HD,and still add in bonus Domain spells/powers??

As far as tying all the abilities of DT into Turn attempts is a little too far in the other direction from a power/balance stand point. Especially for a Dex/Wis based character, though I suppose it does make the Extra Turning feat a pretty nice option.

Zarthustran - I don't think there is a feat like that, *seems* a little powerful to me. In conjunction with DT (AW), it would blow the roof off the munchkin house

 

[Zaruthustran]

Zarthustran - I don't think there is a feat like that, *seems* a little powerful to me. In conjunction with DT (AW), it would blow the roof off the munchkin house

Alright, you gotta help me with DT (AW). What does that mean?

Complete Scoundrel is full of multiclass-friendly feats, continuing the trend started with all those "Ascetic * " feats. All of the feats that include Rogue or Scouts stack the other class for purposes of sneak attack or skirmish.

So, given that, it seems reasonable for the rogue classes to stack with cleric levels for turning checks. I mean, that's not that big a deal--how often do clerics actually turn undead (as opposed to using TU attempts to fuel other feats)?

-z

 

[Salthorae]

Sorry, DT - Divine Trickster; (AW) - As Written. Figured since the DT we've been discussing isn't in the "Rules" I probably shouldn't say "RAW".

Personally I haven't played a cleric since some of the newer feats came out that allow you to burn attempts to fuel other powers, so I would say "Always?"