Divine Trickster?

[Nifft]

I'm an admitted powergamer by preference, but I really don't see Rich's Divine Trickster as too powerful. I'm confused by some of what you say Nifft.

Compare the Divine Trickster to the Arcane Trickster. You did read Rich's note at the bottom of his class, right? Where he does this comparison? If you haven't read that, none of what I say will make much sense.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hammerhead]

Speaking from play experience, the Rogue Cleric multiclass is bad. Dreadfully bad. Horrifically bad. My character was a joke. I eventually realized that a bard would be able to do almost everything I could do (except for a sneak attack that rarely hit), and excel at some other areas. I was currently using the Shadowbane Stalker Prestige Class, which was annoying in of itself (you have to be lawful good, which limits a lot of your options).

Had I been allowed to use the Divine Trickster, I think my character would have been less of a joke and close to the power level of the other characters (note that we didn't even have a particularly optimized party: a Tiefling Swashbuckler, a Changeling Ninja, a Halfling Wizard 2 levels lower than the rest of the party, and a Human Soulknife. A soulknife, and he was far better than me. Come on!)

When I see people complaining about how powerful the Divine Trickster might be, I'm reminded of the same arguments concerning the Mystic Theurge. In play, however, the MT is actually kind of weak (assuming you don't use Ur Priest or something )

 

[Salthorae]

Compare the Divine Trickster to the Arcane Trickster. You did read Rich's note at the bottom of his class, right? Where he does this comparison? If you haven't read that, none of what I say will make much sense.

I just went back and re-read it, but Except for the Early entry comment, everything I say above is still relevant I believe...

You lose hp vs cle, probably aren't using the med/heavy armor, skill points vs. rog, access to 4 other rogue special abilities (assuming Slippery mind is one you'd take, most pointedly Improved Evasion!), higher Trap Sense, Uncanny/Imp. Uncanny dodge...And based on the builds outlined above you'd possibly be losing some spell casting.

As to the Wisdom/Rogue not having synergy and then complaining when he gives the class an (note the singular) ability that ties Wisdom into trap finding (one of the lowest rogue abilities)? I don't see that as over powering at all. It's not like he gave the Wisdom bonus to Reflex saves or AC or something. It's only useful when finding, disabling, and identifying magical traps. Even at that point, it's still just a bonus (maybe in the 4-6 range if you're maxing Wis), not a guarantee of success!

I personally feel it's a pretty balanced class.

 

[Nifft]

I just went back and re-read it, but Except for the Early entry comment, everything I say above is still relevant I believe...

You lose hp vs cle, probably aren't using the med/heavy armor, skill points vs. rog, access to 4 other rogue special abilities (assuming Slippery mind is one you'd take, most pointedly Improved Evasion!), higher Trap Sense, Uncanny/Imp. Uncanny dodge...And based on the builds outlined above you'd possibly be losing some spell casting.

As to the Wisdom/Rogue not having synergy and then complaining when he gives the class an (note the singular) ability that ties Wisdom into trap finding (one of the lowest rogue abilities)? I don't see that as over powering at all. It's not like he gave the Wisdom bonus to Reflex saves or AC or something. It's only useful when finding, disabling, and identifying magical traps. Even at that point, it's still just a bonus (maybe in the 4-6 range if you're maxing Wis), not a guarantee of success!

I personally feel it's a pretty balanced class.

So, you are still comparing this class to a single-class Rogue and a single-class Cleric and deciding that it's not strictly better than either, and therefore it's balanced?

The thing to look at isn't if it gets more skill points than a Rogue and better HP than a Cleric. That would be obviously broken. The thing to look at is: how much better than an Arcane Trickster is it?

1/2 BAB vs. 3/4 BAB -- DT wins.
d4 HD vs. d6 HD -- DT wins.
Enter at level 9 vs. level 7 -- DT wins.

Levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10: same
Level 1: Ranged Legerdemain 1/day vs. Surprise for the Dead -- huge win for DT
Level 3: Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day vs. Trap Guidance -- tie
Level 5: Ranged Legerdemain 2/day vs. Domain Flexibility -- huge win for DT. people often complain that Clerics get access to many of the best Sorc/Wiz spells. Now here's one who can cast some of the best ones more often than a Wizard, while not needing to actually limit his selection like a Sorcerer. Huge win for DT.
Level 7: Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day vs. Hide in Plain Sight -- "free" here means "without having to take a sucky level of Shadowdancer, which otherwise one would never ever do". Huge win for the DT.
Level 9: Ranged Legerdemain 3/day vs. Slippery Mind -- strong, and unnecessary. The class grants a good Will save, as does the dude's Cleric levels, AND he's going to have a high Wisdom bonus ... it's just way too much. Huge win for the DT.


Basically, the Arcane Trickster gets full sneak attack, full spellcasting, and a few flavor abilities.

The DT should be the same, but modified as Rich has done to allow easier entry -- it really is sucky to play the precursor to either DT or AT, so speedy entry is very nice. But once you're in, you shouldn't get full advancement of both good class features AND a bunch of strong bonuses.


Finally, most of your points about how the DT loses out on stuff apply even more to the AT.

For example, Arcane Tricksters can't wear any armor (if they want to cast spells reliably) -- that's a net loss from the Rogue side. A DT who ever wants a chance of using his Trickery domain spells won't be in heavy armor anyway -- so it's really no loss at all there. DT can wear Light armor with no penalty. Again, win for the DT.


Granting free feats, free abilities from other PrCs, free spells (super-extended gravestrike at 1st level), and free Rogue Special Abilities is just too strong, especially when you consider that you can actually enter after level 6 with only ONE level of spellcasting lost (via Halfling racial substitution level).

Cheers, -- N

 

[brehobit]

So, you are still comparing this class to a single-class Rogue and a single-class Cleric and deciding that it's not strictly better than either, and therefore it's balanced?

The thing to look at isn't if it gets more skill points than a Rogue and better HP than a Cleric. That would be obviously broken. The thing to look at is: how much better than an Arcane Trickster is it?

While I think the Divine Trickster is too powerful, I think you overstate your cause. Arcane spells are just plain better than divine (look at the bonuses a cleric gets vs wizard: better BAB, saves, armor, weapons). So the divine version should get more cool stuff. Is it too much cool stuff? I'd have to say "yes". But it isn't all that bad. And on top of that, I'd consider the arcane trickster to be on the weak side...

As stated above, I'd go with:
* Lose cleric advancement at level 5.
* Remove HiPS and replace it with uncanny dodge (or improved UD if you have UD).

That should be plenty.
Mark

 

[Salthorae]

So, you are still comparing this class to a single-class Rogue and a single-class Cleric and deciding that it's not strictly better than either, and therefore it's balanced?

How else should I determine what is balanced or not? All classes/PrC's should balance, the whole POINT of 3.x was balance wasn't it? It's not my fault that, like Brehobit said, Arcane Trickster is underpowered. Things should be balance in relation first to core classes (of which Rogue and Cleric are a part). If a PrC'd character is balanced vs. core classes, then I could care less if he is balanced vs. other PrC's...

1/2 BAB vs. 3/4 BAB -- DT wins.
d4 HD vs. d6 HD -- DT wins.
Enter at level 9 vs. level 7 -- DT wins.

These are true in the same way that Cleric vs. Wizard's BAB and HD are true, cleric wins both times. As for Entry Level of AT, I've always thought 1: that it's too high, and 2: that AT is the weakest (next to Duelist) PrC.

Comments in []'s
Level 1: Ranged Legerdemain 1/day vs. Surprise for the Dead -- huge win for DT - [I agree, but it's NOT huge. slight win I say due to the (still) limited usage]
Level 3: Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day vs. Trap Guidance -- tie [Agreed]
Level 5: Ranged Legerdemain 2/day vs. Domain Flexibility -- huge win for DT. [I still say - all it is, is a bonus feat from Complete Divine]

people often complain that Clerics get access to many of the best Sorc/Wiz spells. Now here's one who can cast some of the best ones more often than a Wizard, while not needing to actually limit his selection like a Sorcerer. Huge win for DT.

By this you're talking about the Trickery Domain, not really Chaos or Luck. And really by this you mean Invisibility and Time Stop, maybe Poly Any Object? Those last two depend on your build, and if you build for 9th level divine spells you can miracle ANY wizard's spell (8th level or lower) once you get there anyway. If anything the AT has the advantage there because there is no "Limited Miracle" spell to mimic wizard/sorc spells earlier.

Level 7: Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day vs. Hide in Plain Sight -- "free" here means "without having to take a sucky level of Shadowdancer, which otherwise one would never ever do". Huge win for the DT. -[Personally I like Shadowdancer's for gameplay, this is the only ability of the DT that I would consider removing/changing, but even then I don't think it's a deal breaker as the way it's stated is

Can Use the Hide skill, even while being observed

So the character still needs cover or concealment, they can just make a hide check while being observed. Shadowdancers can hide even without Cover OR concealment if they are w/n 10' of a shadow

Level 9: Ranged Legerdemain 3/day vs. Slippery Mind -- strong, and unnecessary. The class grants a good Will save, as does the dude's Cleric levels, AND he's going to have a high Wisdom bonus ... it's just way too much. Huge win for the DT. - [An extra save (at the same DC) after one round of whatever the initial Enchantment did working is "way too much"?]

Basically, the Arcane Trickster gets full sneak attack, full spellcasting, and a few flavor abilities.

[True, and I think that leaves it underpowered/balance from a base class]

The DT should be the same, but modified as Rich has done to allow easier entry -- it really is sucky to play the precursor to either DT or AT, so speedy entry is very nice. But once you're in, you shouldn't get full advancement of both good class features AND a bunch of strong bonuses

[So Sneak attack is the only thing a rogue does? Hmm, and here I thought those high skill points were for a reason. And they have ability to evade AoE spells with little to no damage period (improved evasion), and the ability to find/remove & dodge traps if they do set them off was an ability]

For example, Arcane Tricksters can't wear any armor (if they want to cast spells reliably) -- that's a net loss from the Rogue side.A DT who ever wants a chance of using his Trickery domain spells won't be in heavy armor anyway -- so it's really no loss at all there. DT can wear Light armor with no penalty. Again, win for the DT.

So your hypothetical AT REALLY can't cast Mage armor or even Greater Mage armor? Maybe Shield? Because I'm pretty sure a core built DT couldn't, so really that's just keeping them at the same AC's...

...free spells (super-extended gravestrike at 1st level)

Umm, you mean at 7th level right? And gravestrike is only a 1st level spell so you could already do that many times per day. I still contend that unless you've got some Uber stats your duration on the Surprise Undead ability is only going to be 1-2 rds. So it's either the same duration as gravestrike or double, all for spending a Turn attempt. Alternately you could just take Divine Metamagic (Extend Spell) and accomplish the same thing (with Extra Turning from any source it's probably the same # of times per day too!)

and free Rogue Special Abilities is just too strong

Singular, you only get the Slippery Mind.

...you can actually enter after level 6 with only ONE level of spellcasting lost (via Halfling racial substitution level)...

Huh? Last time I checked the Racial Substitution levels only allow you to substitue for the class for which they are named. SO you'd still have to take Levels of Rogue to take the Halfling Rogue substitution levels, you can't take Halfling Rogue levels and somehow gain the necessary (domains) spellcasting from it either. Halfling Druid under spells says "As per Druid Class" or something to that effect. In addition those Levels give you better Ranged SA, but not melee, so I'm not sure how that would work for PrC's with SA requirements. Regardless you still have to be a Rogue(Halfling) 3 to get to the +2d6 sneak attack as the substitution levels are 1,3,10. Not 1,2... You'd have to still be rog 3/Cle 3 to qualify for DT...

 

[Sound of Azure]

Gee, I almost regret even mentioning it. It had been a while since I last looked at it.

Anyhow.... yeah, I think Rich's version is a bit too powerful, so I'd drop the level 1 and 6 caster level advancement.

I'd also alter the sneak attack progression so that the PC only gains 4 extra sneak attack hit dice (at 1, 4, 7, and 10). I'd probably reorganise the other "specials" to reflect this change.

I had it in my head that the class limited the skill list more that it did (I got it mixed up with his Elemental Infiltrator class).

IMO, Slippery Mind isn't so bad to get. Yes, it's a free rogue ability, but you get no choice over getting it.

 

[Nifft]

I feel the urge to take this discussion to House Rules, where the audience is less nit-picky.

I'll call the thread "Fixing the Divine Trickster".

Cheers, -- N

PS: IMHO, the Shadowbane Stalker (without the alignment restriction) is an appropriately strong alternative. It's got more skill points, too.

 

[Nifft]

So Sneak attack is the only thing a rogue does? Hmm, and here I thought [...] Huh? Last time I checked [...]

I've only snipped a couple of phrases, but I think they convey a certain tone. I hope that you don't think I've been using a similar tone -- I've been trying to be direct and polite.

Anyway, I'm not really interested in having a discussion in a tone like this. So, good gaming.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Salthorae]

I've only snipped a couple of phrases, but I think they convey a certain tone. I hope that you don't think I've been using a similar tone -- I've been trying to be direct and polite.

Anyway, I'm not really interested in having a discussion in a tone like this. So, good gaming.

Cheers, -- N

Re-reading what I wrote, I'd say you're correct, they do convey a tone. I'm sorry for that, as it wasn't my intention. I have trouble correctly conveying tones in real conversation, online is only worse Sorry Nifft!

Also on the second snippet, that really should have said something more like this in my original post to convey what I really wanted it to: "I'm genuienely curious... are there Halfing substitution levels that would help with entry into this PrC at 6th level? Because last time I checked they only allow..."

Back to the topic of this thread... You may want to also consider some of the PrC's from Complete Scoundrel, these in particular:

Magical Trickster (Skill Tricks powered by spells)
Master of Masks (not maybe what you're looking for, but it looks interesting anyway...)
Spellwarp Sniper (Ray specialist, can make non-ray spells into ray spells, extra damage with Rays (stacks with Sneak Attack if the attack fulfills req's for a SA))...

If you're still interested in the Divine Trickster from OotS, but you feel it's over powered, any of the suggestions put forth already should do the trick to bring it down a peg, drop some caster levels and HiPS (throw in Uncanny/Imp. Uncanny Dodge), limit the uses/day Like Nifft suggested earlier to make it more comparable to the Arcane Trickster

Hope my poor attempts at giving detailed answers didn't throw you off your own thread DarkJester!