DM Advice: How strict should the paladin code be?

Okie I guess I should post my specific problem....Tyler dont read this.............................................................................







Ok. He is a Paladin of Torm, whom I feel is pretty strict. Now the situation. The party was in battle against some undead. They had help, an NPC paladin also of Torm. She ,the NPC, along with a party member died in battle. Killed by the wraith. A dwarf ranger in the party buried some fallen NPC dwarves from the battle and suggested the paladin should bury his compatriot as well. Well, That never happened. He just left her unsanctified corpse lying on the ground and took off with her holy sword to get the PC raised. So , is this or is this not bad conduct by him?
 

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He just left a fellow Paladin of the SAME GOD there? My god! If he's going to off and get her raised, he should at least take the corpse with him! Hit him with something nearly as bad as loss of powers. Talk to him about alignment out of game.
 

He is not going to get her raised. He is going to get the other PC raised. He just left her body there to rot. Torm would revoke his powers for his lack of Loyalty to his fellow Paladin, and his failure to uphold his Duty by burying her. He broke two of the most sacred principles of Torm with this one act, and I would remove his powers until he atones.
 

Chaotic Players seem to have hard times playing lawful good paladins. It is often best to work with the player to make a code they understand and so they understand the DM's interpritations for alignment.

What ticked me off was in 3.5 WoTC gave the religion skill so much and yet they did not set the DC to determine if an action would be good, evil, lawful or chaotic for the campaign. Sure +2 to turning [5 ranks] but no D&D religion knows how to define evil.... complete BS
 

Look, it's really about what kind of game are you trying to play?

Do you want the paladin player to be all "about the code" and introduce moral dilemmas in your game, or do you not?
Because from the little you've said so far, LGodamus, I'd say the liklihood of either of you understanding a paladin well enough to introduce moral dilemmas in your campaign is rather low.

He probably is not "into" a paladin character, since what he did is a no-brainer.
If he had the character in his head correctly, that would have been an unthinkable thing to do. In my experience, unless a part of you can relate to a paladin, than you're destined to have an uphill road when trying to play a character who is selfless and dedicated to ideals that you (perhaps) are not. The vast majority of gamers are not THAT GOOD of roleplayers to be able to effortlessly think "What Would a Paladin Do" unless they either research it a lot, or just understand the character type.

For your part, your suggestion of using a Point System to evaluate a Paladin's actions screams to me that you also are not a "Paladin Player", or comprehend them adequately to be a judge of their actions on the kind of detailed level that is required for indepth moral dilemma-play.

So just step back a bit, and since you both probably want to continue using the paladin character in your game, just make broad-brush strokes with Paladin Behavior - when the player does no-brainer stuff like leaving a fellow Torm Paladin unburied, unhonored, and unlamented, help him out!
Give him a suggestion like "uhh.. something inside you screams out for something to be done about ____"
 

reapersaurus said:
Look, it's really about what kind of game are you trying to play?

Do you want the paladin player to be all "about the code" and introduce moral dilemmas in your game, or do you not?
Because from the little you've said so far, LGodamus, I'd say the liklihood of either of you understanding a paladin well enough to introduce moral dilemmas in your campaign is rather low.

He probably is not "into" a paladin character, since what he did is a no-brainer.
If he had the character in his head correctly, that would have been an unthinkable thing to do. In my experience, unless a part of you can relate to a paladin, than you're destined to have an uphill road when trying to play a character who is selfless and dedicated to ideals that you (perhaps) are not. The vast majority of gamers are not THAT GOOD of roleplayers to be able to effortlessly think "What Would a Paladin Do" unless they either research it a lot, or just understand the character type.

For your part, your suggestion of using a Point System to evaluate a Paladin's actions screams to me that you also are not a "Paladin Player", or comprehend them adequately to be a judge of their actions on the kind of detailed level that is required for indepth moral dilemma-play.

So just step back a bit, and since you both probably want to continue using the paladin character in your game, just make broad-brush strokes with Paladin Behavior - when the player does no-brainer stuff like leaving a fellow Torm Paladin unburied, unhonored, and unlamented, help him out!
Give him a suggestion like "uhh.. something inside you screams out for something to be done about ____"

Umm ...I take offense to that...I am a paladin player, and a good DM , I feel. The points system was for the players benefit. So He wouldnt feel I was screwin him over. I would have taken away his powers on the spot, but this is his first paladin, and we havent gamed together that long. I didnt want to be all heavy handed.
 

OK, leaving a fallen comrade unburied, in a place known to have undead is just ... unwise and rather stupid. If the paladin character had a low Int, I might excuse the initial mistake. But, the (presumably) higher Wis should kick in and make the Paladin stop and think about it.

Out of curiosity, why does the player want to play a Paladin? Is it because of kewl abilities or because he wants to RP out the rather challenging role? If it is for the kewl factor, then you probably have a mis-match for the player/character. The player will probably treat the Paladin's Code as flavorful window dressing that shouldn't really have any affect on the game. When I have a player like that, I give them fair warning that the Paladin's Code is real and will definitely come into play. If they don't pay attention and try to adhere to the Code, I let their actions bring them from Grace.

If the player is truly interested in the RP, I work with them extensively. Admittedly, I run a home-brew game and if the Paladin chooses a God, they need information from me. I am slowly trying to put together player guides to my gods, but it isn't always my highest priority when there is other game work to be done. As an example, in my game, it is generally a no-no to loot a fellow paladin. Your comrade's armor, weapons and other equipment should be returned to his Lord, his Church, his family, or whatever. We are talking about Lawful characters here. Unless you have been given permission by somebody with authority, you do not take that equipment. This is a concept that is difficult for somebody new to my games. The experienced players probably know that I will reward good play in one form or another, so they may be willing to have more patience. You indicate that this is a relatively new player, so maybe you have similar issues.

In any event, I still think that communication is the key. Perhaps the player just assumed that the character would bury the dead. Maybe the player is not accustomed to stating his non-combat actions? I know that might sound weird, but I have had many times where a player doesn't state the character's actions and I will point blank ask them "Are you really not going to do X?" The player may stare at me blankly a few moments before saying "Yeah, he would do that." Then I will say "Well, you need to tell me that. If you don't say it, you didn't do it." I am talking about people that worked out to be great players, they just weren't accustomed to thinking some things through. As well, sometimes people have off nights and are a bit ... spacy.

Obviously, you have a much better idea of the circumstances than I do. I just wanted to point out some possibilities. :)

Good luck with resolving the issue.
 

Fox...you may be right. They were pressed for time ....he, the player, probably spaced out on tryin to figure out how to get their buddy raised...I need to talk to him about it. Either way they have a newly rised former paladin wraith to deal with when they get back.
 

Yeow! Now is that a stock MM Wraith, or a Wraith template applied to the former paladin? ;)

Just for the record, I did throw a wraith template at my party once. It was fun, especially since the Bard was the one that was "wraithed". Mind you, the group also had a Sorceror, a Psion (Telepath) and a high Cha Paladin that all would have been fun to apply the Wraith template to, but when the party later figured out that a Wraith's AC, and DC for saves are affected by CHA, they were less than thrilled.
 


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