DM Advice: How strict should the paladin code be?
- Thread starter LGodamus
- Start date
I agree that he should have been stripped of powers until he made attonement for that act. However, I would have warned him (perhaps with a quick private note) that he was doing something against his alignment, and more specifically, something that would be completely offensive to his god. However, I wouldn't ALWAYS warn him. Eventually you have to accept that the player should know the ins and outs of their character.
On another note:
When I play a paladin (or in the case of the current game I'm playing where I used to play a LG cleric) I'm more interested in the challenge of playing such a character. So something that annoys me is when the rest of the party expects me to simply leave when they want to do something that I wouldn't approve of. It's like they expect me to play a stupid paladin.
Anyone else get this? Or is it just people I know who try to pull this?
On another note:
When I play a paladin (or in the case of the current game I'm playing where I used to play a LG cleric) I'm more interested in the challenge of playing such a character. So something that annoys me is when the rest of the party expects me to simply leave when they want to do something that I wouldn't approve of. It's like they expect me to play a stupid paladin.
Anyone else get this? Or is it just people I know who try to pull this?
Voadam
Legend
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.
Two questions before stripping a paladin of their powers: 1) was what they did an evil act? 2) Did they grossly violate the code of conduct?
This paladin rescued one of the fallen but did not bury or bring back the corpse of the other paladin. Instead the paladin took the dead one's powerful magic sword to continue the fight against evil.
Evil act or grossly violate the code of conduct?
Depends, did the paladin abandon the fallen comrade's corpse so it would not be raised by the church and he could get the sword? If so then I would rule that an evil act without honor so he both loses paladin status for both reasons.
If it was just pressure of time, he didn't think about the unhallowed undead area, etc. then I would not think it evil and consider it debatable about being a GROSS violation of the code (acting with honor and helping those in need requirements debatably apply to the situation) and would depend upon the exact circumstances.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.
Two questions before stripping a paladin of their powers: 1) was what they did an evil act? 2) Did they grossly violate the code of conduct?
This paladin rescued one of the fallen but did not bury or bring back the corpse of the other paladin. Instead the paladin took the dead one's powerful magic sword to continue the fight against evil.
Evil act or grossly violate the code of conduct?
Depends, did the paladin abandon the fallen comrade's corpse so it would not be raised by the church and he could get the sword? If so then I would rule that an evil act without honor so he both loses paladin status for both reasons.
If it was just pressure of time, he didn't think about the unhallowed undead area, etc. then I would not think it evil and consider it debatable about being a GROSS violation of the code (acting with honor and helping those in need requirements debatably apply to the situation) and would depend upon the exact circumstances.
Voadam
Legend
Mystic_23 said:
There is a paladin in our group and I deal politically with two major LG churches in the game. I never expect the paladin to turn away so I can do underhanded things. I either talk things through with him beforehand or at the time (we've had conversations about poison use and green slime as a biological weapon), self censor or modify my plans to work with him, or do things completely behind his back so he hopefully never connects it to me. My character considers paladins and clerics powerful somewhat irrational religious fanatics, and deals with them accordingly.
LuYangShih
First Post
The core code of the Paladin should be adjusted to take into account the deity he serves, however. Two of Torms greatest precepts are Duty and Loyalty, and the Paladin grossly violated both of them by leaving his fellow Paladins body in an Undead ridden graveyard. He should be immediately stripped of his powers until he atones.
Silverglass
Registered User
I don't have the blurb for the Wraith template so my comments are more based on the Wraith from the MM.
Pertinent questions would be whether the Player had any idea that the fallen Paladin would become a wraith. If they are a new player and didn't know this then you shouldn't penalise the player for not knowing something. If the Player knew this should you consider that the PC new it, if not they didn't knowingly commit an evil act.
Secondly did they have any means of stopping the transformation. If not (and I don't think that just burying them would do it) why should he be penalised for not preventing something he had no power to affect.
And as people have mentioned above it could have been a simple problem in communication.
Not burying the dead is not in itself an "evil" act. Plenty of "good" cultures have burial rituals that do not involve burying the dead. It's more a matter of the dogma of the deity and how it treats the bodies of the dead rather than the spirits of the dead.
If the dogma is more that the soul is the most important and after death what happens to the body doesn't effect the soul then leaving a body unburied would not actually harm the soul so isn't breaching the Duty and Loyalty requisites. But I don't have a write up of Torm either.
Look at it this way, when the Paladin gets back to the temple and reports what has occurred then you have a nice new plot hook for the party to go and lay the new wraith to rest, and this time they should prepare any means they can to stop new wraiths arising.
Pertinent questions would be whether the Player had any idea that the fallen Paladin would become a wraith. If they are a new player and didn't know this then you shouldn't penalise the player for not knowing something. If the Player knew this should you consider that the PC new it, if not they didn't knowingly commit an evil act.
Secondly did they have any means of stopping the transformation. If not (and I don't think that just burying them would do it) why should he be penalised for not preventing something he had no power to affect.
And as people have mentioned above it could have been a simple problem in communication.
Not burying the dead is not in itself an "evil" act. Plenty of "good" cultures have burial rituals that do not involve burying the dead. It's more a matter of the dogma of the deity and how it treats the bodies of the dead rather than the spirits of the dead.
If the dogma is more that the soul is the most important and after death what happens to the body doesn't effect the soul then leaving a body unburied would not actually harm the soul so isn't breaching the Duty and Loyalty requisites. But I don't have a write up of Torm either.
Look at it this way, when the Paladin gets back to the temple and reports what has occurred then you have a nice new plot hook for the party to go and lay the new wraith to rest, and this time they should prepare any means they can to stop new wraiths arising.
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Thanee
First Post
I'm sure he only did it, so she could "live on"! 
Seriously, tho, I'd tell the player what you think about this act (and rightly so), that it is a huge violation of his code and what his religion stands for!
He should need to atone, which shouldn't be overly hard, tho, for now, so the player isn't turned off too harshly, just because he thought more in a PC-NPC frame there (which he obviously did)!
In future situations of similar caliber, just remind him.
Bye
Thanee
Seriously, tho, I'd tell the player what you think about this act (and rightly so), that it is a huge violation of his code and what his religion stands for!
He should need to atone, which shouldn't be overly hard, tho, for now, so the player isn't turned off too harshly, just because he thought more in a PC-NPC frame there (which he obviously did)!
In future situations of similar caliber, just remind him.
Bye
Thanee
Estlor
Explorer
(Note: Thanks to Voadam for posting this - it makes it easier for me to give my answer)Voadam said:
The key with a paladin is to wed them to a religious order at character creation, then go look up (or make up) the belief and morality system of said order. The paladin becomes the strict defender and upholder of the religious faith, following things to the last letter even if they might seem odd to outsiders.
Next, a paladin should be kind and chertiable to those he meets that he has no reason to suspect are evil or corrupt. You know, things like helping the widow carry her water back to the house, giving a traveller a lift on his horse, and so on. Nothing major, just good deeds (and if he can preech his god's word in the process, all the better).
Finally, a paladin should respect the authority of the land unless he discovers they are fundamentally against his religious order and oaths. Here is where the paladin has to give a wide berth - not everyone can be expected to live up to his ideals and he knows that. Someone that misses the mark, isn't a believer, but acts in a manner that is compatable with his faith is fine. Someone who abuses their authority or oppresses people in a manner that it screams injustice to his personal code is discarded as "illegitimate."
A fellow faithful, especially another paladin, is a strong comrade of the paladin and should always be respected, supported, and aided (unless the paladin comes to know they have been corrupted and turned from the true path). You shouldn't abandon their body to the undead any quicker than a good paladin would abandon the body of a friend.
Take away the paladin's powers, but make the atonement needed to make up for his infraction light because, as a player, the concept is still new to them. After this, however, you may want to nudge them the next few times they do something out of line ("Are you SURE you're paladin would do that?), then if they persist... Say hello to the newest fighter in the party.
Voadam
Legend
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
So broken dow bit by bit.
legitimate authority: not relevant to the situation.
Act with honor: From the examples these seem to be a list of unacceptable means even for good ends. If he abandoned the corpse so the paladin would not be raised so he could gain the sword then this would apply as a violation.
Help those in need: abandoned the corpse and therefore the fallen paladins soul to risk of undeath, abandoned the corpse instead of bringing it back. Possible violation. If he didn't realize the risk of undeath, it is possibly not a violation.
Punish those who harm or threaten innocents: not relevant.
Two possible violations, one depends on motives, one depends on knowledge.
So broken dow bit by bit.
legitimate authority: not relevant to the situation.
Act with honor: From the examples these seem to be a list of unacceptable means even for good ends. If he abandoned the corpse so the paladin would not be raised so he could gain the sword then this would apply as a violation.
Help those in need: abandoned the corpse and therefore the fallen paladins soul to risk of undeath, abandoned the corpse instead of bringing it back. Possible violation. If he didn't realize the risk of undeath, it is possibly not a violation.
Punish those who harm or threaten innocents: not relevant.
Two possible violations, one depends on motives, one depends on knowledge.
