D&D General DM Authority

Doesn't it depend on the plot twist? Assuming the standard "doing quests for the king", there's a difference between surprise twist and bait & switch IMHO. Does it turn out that the king is an imposter? Surprise. After doing a couple of adventures the group is teleported up to a spaceship and now suddenly you're doing an esper genesis space fantasy game? Bait & Switch.
Honestly, I don’t see “the king as an imposter” as a major secret, and I definitely agree that a DM doesn’t need to reveal everything to make an interesting adventure.

I am describing something more like the DM refusing to tell the players important elements of the world, under the guise that it is better if the players are surprised or that the characters wouldn’t know, such that the campaign will have a nautical theme, or that the characters will spend considerable time in forests.
 

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Usually this is about campaigns that turn out to be radically different from what was on the label, not just ones where some elements are not what they seem. Its entirely possible under those circumstances to build a character who's abilities are heavily rendered useless by the reality of the campaign. Its a little less of an issue with D&D proper since it tends to force certain common abilities on all characters of a type, but it can be a big issue with build-from-the-ground-up systems, and even with things like D&D--well, the ranger with all the wilderness skills who finds himself stuck in the city floating in the void for the campaign is going to be a little less than happymaking. Or the bard with all the social skills who finds himself out in the howling wilderness with nothing but hostile peoples to encounter, and not even many of those.
You have expressed my idea better than I have; thank you.
 

"The importance of DMs sometimes retaining sole authorship"

The thing is though, you aren't demonstrating that. There was nothing wrong with what your player did, you just don't like it an find it awkward because you have to tell them no. Your players don't like it for reasons that frankly, you aren't expressing well, except that they seem to also be upset someone wrote something into your world.

The player did nothing wrong, and there is, from a practical standpoint, nothing stopping you and your other players from embracing his additions, except for the fact that you don't want to. Sure, you don't want to do it, and it is rooted in some instincts I respect, but there is no importance to deciding one way or the other.




Permission? Why did he need permission to write-up something and present it to you? And frankly, if you had liked his ideas, since you are the "sole author" then you would have implemented them whether the other players liked them or not.

I mean, they guy didn't just sit at the table and star telling you who these NPCs were right? He probably handed you a document of names and background sketches before or after the game? Maybe an e-mail sent to the whole group? This is the type of phrasing that makes it feel like you are upset, that he somehow crossed a line.

And, by horrible, I was worried that he had written characters along the lines of "a secret runaway princess deeply in love with my character." That sort of thing I can see upsetting people. But if they are perfectly fine characters, just not your characters, then what he did doesn't seem that bad.



See, this is the sort of detail that clicks things into place. This isn't just a player making NPCs, this is a former DM pushing his NPCs into a new game. A game partially or fully made up of people who quit his last campaign in part because of how he pushed his NPCs, giving a repeated pattern.

Heck, if you'd led with that I wouldn't have even bothered with most of my response, because this isn't a player getting inspired, this is another DM seeming like he is trying to muscle into your turf. Of course this is going to raise hackles, especially with a group of players who quit his game.


Yeah, no, now this all makes a lot more sense. If he wasn't the former DM of the players, or a DM with a pattern of heavily pushing his NPCs, then I'm sure this entire issue would be perceived very differently by your group. You might still be annoyed, but I'm sure the other players reactions are in large part because it feels like him repeating what they left his game to avoid.

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Unless the player is asked to narrate the outcome. Which some DMs do.

Again, I'm not trying to say that one way or the other is preferable for all given tables, but if your argument is that the DM must have authority, and you support that by things that only the DM can do... the fact that none of those things are actually limited to only the DM undermines that point.

The players can make rulings, if the group agrees.
The players can narrate the outcome of their actions, if the group agrees.

So neither of those things prove that a DM is necessary, only that some people prefer to have them.



And yet the Toxic players are integrally tied to the in-game role of the DM, and completely productive examples?

This is why we keep saying that focusing only on bad-faith player arguments, a thing people keep doing over and over, and that you defended doing, are not helpful rebuttals to our position.

Because as soon as we bring up bad-faith DMs, it is irrelevant, inappropriate, and not productive.

When discussing two sides, if you are allowed to paint one in as negative a light as you wish, but the the other can never be painted in a negative light, the argument is skewed.

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"Not in his favor" is a funny way of saying that he accused me of lying about what he said, and he literally said what I claimed, in the post I was quoting, and the material I was talking about in that post he called a lie was about that post I was quoting.

I mean. I'm trying real hard to be reasonable here, but this is fairly black and white. I did not go and grab an unrelated post to defend myself from the accusations of me lying, I grabbed the post originaiting the quote he called a lie, and showed step by step that he said exactly what I claimed he said.



So, when he accused me of lying about what he said, he didn't want me to focus on the part I was quoting, you know, the thing where I was being accused of lying, but he wanted me to take into account every single thing he has said over the entire 50 pages.

Why? Because he contradicted himself and his other posts show that what I quoted wasn't true?

Well, that'd be great for me, wouldn't it?



There is no perspective here. There is no debate. Oofta said I lied, and that he never said what I was talking about.

I quoted him, word for word, highlighting it. He said those things. That means I didn't lie, because I was responding to those things.


You know what the funniest part is? I'm sure people noticed that I've been responding to Oofta separate from everyone else, not in these big multi-quotes? You wanna know why? Because in the last thread, he complained it was hard to find my responses when his were part of everyone else's. So I changed my posting style, specifically to accommodate him. And now I'm being called a liar, because he didn't want to confront my arguments.
To be honest. When I come to your extreme multi-quotes style my eyes gloss over and I end up skipping or skimming the whole post more often than not.

It's too much of a wall of text. I don't mind minor multi-quoting going on but when your single post takes me 3-4 pages on my monitor to go through it's too much, at least for me.

And also please consider that nearly every single quote of even a single line above you wrote 4 sentences to 4 paragraphs in response to.
 
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To be honest. When I come to your extreme multi-quotes style my eyes gloss over and I end up skipping or skimming the whole post more often than not.

It's too much of a wall of text. I don't mind minor multi-quoting going on but when your single post takes me 3-4 pages on my monitor to go through it's too much, at least for me.

And also please consider that nearly every singe quote of even a single line above you wrote 4 sentences to 4 paragraphs in response to.
Yeah. I scan for my name and skip the rest.
 

Honestly, I don’t see “the king as an imposter” as a major secret, and I definitely agree that a DM doesn’t need to reveal everything to make an interesting adventure.

I am describing something more like the DM refusing to tell the players important elements of the world, under the guise that it is better if the players are surprised or that the characters wouldn’t know, such that the campaign will have a nautical theme, or that the characters will spend considerable time in forests.

This is what I've been taking about to a long while.
DM Authority hinges on the players agreeing to the campaign they are in.
If the players do not know the type of campaign they are in, then the DMM lacks Authority.
It's like consent or a contract.

The whole point of DM Authority is that the players are giving the DM power to provide a certian experience that they agree they wanted by staying at the table. If they do not know what experience they are argeeing to, they cannot be held to actions and characters appropriate to that type of game.

If I sign on to a low magic, sword and sorcery like pirate game with traditional races, I giving theDM Authority to make the game like this. Therefore I should be expected to not play a full on wizard with tons of magic gadgets and a whole arcane lab on the ship. On the other hand, I should not be seeing lizardfolk, lovecraftian mutants, and high magic artificers just rolling happily around the major port town because of "secret reasons".
 

This is what I've been taking about to a long while.
DM Authority hinges on the players agreeing to the campaign they are in.
If the players do not know the type of campaign they are in, then the DMM lacks Authority.
It's like consent or a contract.

The whole point of DM Authority is that the players are giving the DM power to provide a certian experience that they agree they wanted by staying at the table. If they do not know what experience they are argeeing to, they cannot be held to actions and characters appropriate to that type of game.

If I sign on to a low magic, sword and sorcery like pirate game with traditional races, I giving theDM Authority to make the game like this. Therefore I should be expected to not play a full on wizard with tons of magic gadgets and a whole arcane lab on the ship. On the other hand, I should not be seeing lizardfolk, lovecraftian mutants, and high magic artificers just rolling happily around the major port town because of "secret reasons".
I agree with your example. I think your generalization takes it a bit to far though.
 

I agree with your example. I think your generalization takes it a bit to far though.
The generalization is overrepresented. But the premise isn't.

D&D was a theme game like VTM or Shadowrrun. However it hasn't been for a very long time. It's more of a toolset. However still acts like a theme game and never taught DMs and players to describe the type of game and how important it is.

And to me, half of the DM Authority arguments come down to people inadvertently holding "secrets" about the game they are running because they never gave the campaign its "tags" publicly.
 

The generalization is overrepresented. But the premise isn't.

D&D was a theme game like VTM or Shadowrrun. However it hasn't been for a very long time. It's more of a toolset. However still acts like a theme game and never taught DMs and players to describe the type of game and how important it is.

And to me, half of the DM Authority arguments come down to people inadvertently holding "secrets" about the game they are running because they never gave the campaign its "tags" publicly.
Maybe. I think the bigger problem is that there's little consensus on what many of those tags actually mean. Or the tag itself is overloaded to such a degree that it refers to far to many different playstyles in the first place.

I don't think there's a good solution to that kind of problem other than experience. You learn the differences between what you like and don't like about certain styles and become good at articulating questions that will reveal to you whether this is really the kind of game you want to be in before you start playing.
 

Yep. For example:

A game a GM describes as "Low Magic" could mean range of things from:

  • Absolutely nothing in practical terms (then why did the GM say it - who knows? It happens).
  • No changes to PC classes or expectations but pc spellcasters will be rare in the world as a whole and people will notice and remember them.
  • As above, but if you use magic publicly peasants will want to burn you at the stake.
  • The GM will be introducing some wacky" backlash or corruption mechanics into the game.
  • The GM says magic items will be rare and special but then actually they're not.
  • You won't get many magic items.
  • You won't get any magic items.
  • The GM makes random ill considered changes to how healing magic works.
  • No spellcasting classes.
 

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