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D&D General DM Authority

D&D did not in any meaningful sense "evolve" from a wargame into a roleplaying game, because it was never a wargame. (It was called a "fantasy wargame" in 1974 because the term "roleplaying game" had yet to be invented, but the game did not significantly change between 1974 and 1977 when we first see the term "roleplaying game" replace the term "wargame" in D&D's subtitle.)

Even at its earliest, when D&D did ostensibly (and optionally!) use a wargame (Chainmail) as one of its component parts, to substitute for having a robust combat system of its own, it was also using parts of Avalon Hill's Outdoor Survival board game for other purposes. Because the focus of the game was almost entirely on dungeon and wilderness exploration, not combat.

In other words; your point not still stand
Strange, you claim I am wrong, and yet, you talk about the beginning of D&D and yet, you mentionned its roots just like I was implying. D&D evolved from its roots to become a role playing game.

At first, it was only dungeon delving and gradually, players were not interacting with themselves but with their characters. It is because of such evolution, that irked Gygax at first (and to no end if I remember the article correctly) that D&D became a Role Playing Game.

Thus, my point.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Emphatically not true, @Helldritch. It's not only 100% viable to play D&D without character motivations that differ from player motivations—and extremely fun!—it's also arguably the original way that D&D was intended by its creators to work.
That's really debatable. In the 1e DMG Gygax tells the DM that players should engage in skilled play, indicating using player smarts. However, it also says, "As a general rule, the player will develop the personality and other characteristics of his or her personae in the campaign, and little or no DM interference is necessary in this regard."
 

Jack Daniel

dice-universe.blogspot.com
That's really debatable.
Of course. Hence, "arguably."

Strange, you claim I am wrong, and yet, you talk about the beginning of D&D and yet, you mentionned its roots just like I was implying. D&D evolved from its roots to become a role playing game.

At first, it was only dungeon delving and gradually, players were not interacting with themselves but with their characters. It is because of such evolution, that irked Gygax at first (and to no end if I remember the article correctly) that D&D became a Role Playing Game.

Thus, my point.
And you're missing my point. As soon as D&D was about dungeon-delving (which is to say, from the very first), it was a roleplaying game. It couldn't be otherwise. The mere fact of controlling one minifig as "your character" made it so. You don't have to personally identify with the character or give them a personality to play the role (e.g. "fighting man" as opposed to "magic-user" or "cleric")—you just have to control the character/figure.
 
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Of course. Hence, "arguably."


And you're missing my point. As soon as D&D was about dungeon-delving (which is to say, from the very first), it was a roleplaying game. It couldn't be otherwise. The mere fact of controlling one minifig as "your character" made it so. You don't have to personally identify with the character or give them a personality to play the role (i.e. "fighting man" as opposed to "magic-user" or "cleric")—you just have to control the character/figure.
I respectfully disagree. Ever played the board game Space hulk? You control mini and you do not necessarily role play. We can each play a marine in a squad of four and one plays the xeno (gene splicers) and no role play will develop. Yet, it did at some point. At some point, some games evolves beyond their intended purpose. It happened with D&D. At first, palyers would switch "character" every session. It was only when the aspect of heroic figure entered that the concept of charcacter personae emerged as players would prefer to play the same figurine/charcter/role because of the leveling aspect. The role play was not the intended purpose. Just like the pilot on Battletech were not character but became such and the role playing game of battletech finally emerged. Three wargames evolved into rpg when the notion of leveling charcater came into the game. I wonder if there is a correlation or if it is only a coincidence.
 

Jack Daniel

dice-universe.blogspot.com
I respectfully disagree. Ever played the board game Space hulk? You control mini and you do not necessarily role play. We can each play a marine in a squad of four and one plays the xeno (gene splicers) and no role play will develop.

If there are different roles, there's roleplay. Maybe there's no improvisational method-acting that develops, but improvisational method-acting is playacting, not roleplaying.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I respectfully disagree. Ever played the board game Space hulk? You control mini and you do not necessarily role play. We can each play a marine in a squad of four and one plays the xeno (gene splicers) and no role play will develop.
Yes. When you play that game you are playing the role of a space marine. It's not a roleplaying game specifically, but it does have roles that the players play. There are a number of games like that where the lines are blurred. Contrast that with a game like Chess or Monopoly, where you really aren't taking on the role of a Knight or Thimble, even if the pieces resemble them.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
If there are different roles, there's roleplay. Maybe there's no improvisational method-acting that develops, but improvisational method-acting is playacting, not roleplaying.
Method acting is also roleplaying. It's just not the same kind of roleplaying. The difference between a game like Space Hulk or D&D with improvisational method-acting is just HOW you are playing the role.
 

One of the key aspects of wargames of the time that allowed rpgs to evolve was probably the presence of the referee.

If there's a referee then there are grey areas regarding the rules and the possiblity that an absurd rules result could be overruled rather then exploited.

This can evolve into the point where the monster can be invisibile and the player can say "I throw a bag of flour in the air" and the referee can consider whether that would work.

Like I said earlier, in Chess you don't try to sow dissent among the enemy pawns because it's a nonsensical thing to try. Many modern wargames and boardgames are essentially the same, even if they superficially resemble rpgs. In Descent you can't try and have a conversation with an ogre and try to bribe him to fight alongside you against the goblins in the next room.

Any roleplaying you choose to do in Descent is purely an epiphenomenom on top of the rules. It doesn't actually interact with the game in any meaningful way.
 

Jack Daniel

dice-universe.blogspot.com
Method acting is also roleplaying. It's just not the same kind of roleplaying. The difference between a game like Space Hulk or D&D with improvisational method-acting is just HOW you are playing the role.
I would argue that improv acting is something that you do in addition to roleplaying. It's an embellishment or an enhancement of roleplaying, but not a fundamental necessity to roleplaying.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
The major difference between board games and games like D&D, Apocalypse World, and Vampire is that instead of playing on a set board that you can only interact with in predefined ways the game is instead played in shared fiction (or shared conception of the game world if you prefer) where players can have their character take any action the character could feasibly take. They are games where fictional positioning matters.

The idea that your particular corner of the hobby gets to say what counts as a roleplaying game on site dedicated to the greater hobby is bumpkiss. It was bumpkiss when John Wick tried to do it. It's still bumpkiss.
 

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