I don't think that should have worked. First, blasphemy works its nasty stuff on nonevil creatures; as a demon, you have the [Evil] descriptor (but this is debatable). Second, the banishment works only on extraplanar creatures. Even if you were a demon, shapechanging shouldn't give you the extraplanar tag. The banishment should only work if you were from another plane to start with.Hanuman said:I tried the shapechange(demon) tactic on my DM a while back, the rat bastard hit me with a Blasphemy spell and I ended up in the fricken Abyss! Then things got complicated
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DM depressed about Shapechange
- Thread starter FrankinLondon
- Start date
Tiger Oracle
First Post
Familiar or Unique?
You said that the pit fiend was the big baddie of the last game was he a common everyday pit fiend or something more unique? If in the case of the latter he can't become a pit fiend because shapechange states otherwise.
You said that the pit fiend was the big baddie of the last game was he a common everyday pit fiend or something more unique? If in the case of the latter he can't become a pit fiend because shapechange states otherwise.
Campbell
Relaxed Intensity
On Poison Use
I'd like to apologize on the posion comment. I was going off of memory, and there seems to be a few bats loose in belfry.
Saeviomagy: I understand the mistake that I made with posion use, but I don't see any other instance where I've made any false assumptions. I would like to know if I have made any though. My understanding of the rules is nowhere near as complete as I'd like it to be.
I'd like to apologize on the posion comment. I was going off of memory, and there seems to be a few bats loose in belfry.
Saeviomagy: I understand the mistake that I made with posion use, but I don't see any other instance where I've made any false assumptions. I would like to know if I have made any though. My understanding of the rules is nowhere near as complete as I'd like it to be.
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been reading throuth this thread.
First I have no problem with all 9th level spells having minor drawbacks to the caster (ala wish).
Second, the pit fiends fear aura is at will. So he can turn it off. this allows the party to walk with him, but also allows creatures to attack him. Not many people seem to have realised that.
First I have no problem with all 9th level spells having minor drawbacks to the caster (ala wish).
Second, the pit fiends fear aura is at will. So he can turn it off. this allows the party to walk with him, but also allows creatures to attack him. Not many people seem to have realised that.
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Malin Genie
First Post
The whole polymorph chain is broken
I don't think the 3E designers have worked out a 'reasonable' polymorph chain yet. In fact, if I run a game in the near future none of the polymorph chain will be available, and I would strongly consider the variant wildshape abilities from UA rather than allowing wildshape (with or without Natural Spell...) An Ogre, for example, has a LA of +2 to help represent its strength, constitution, reach (and other advantages of size) and natural armour; in addition the Ogre takes 4 levels of monstrous humanoid (a definitely sub-optimal class....) A Wizard, with a single 4th level spell, can effectively give the target at least 2-3 levels worth of increased power!
At least part of the problem IMHO is the plethora of creatures in the sourcebooks (both Core and non-Core,) and the great disparity of their abilities, strength-to-HD ratio, humanlike-enough-to-cast-spells-vs-not-humanlike-enough-to-cast-spells, etc. It also breaks the general pattern of spells, in that rather than enhancing natural ability scores, it provides for fixed physical ability scores (the only other spell which did this in 3.0E, divine power, was changed to an enhancement bonus for 3.5E)
I might favour a spell which transforms the caster into a certain fixed form, with the level of the spell depending on the bonuses thus granted. This would allow a fairer comparison with other spells. For example the ogreform spell might give enhancement bonuses of +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Natural Armour and Large size - making it in effect a combination of Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance and Barkskin, with an additional Str bonus and Dex penalty to balance it.
Now what level would you put a spell that acts as a first level and three second level spells all in one (actually, the 'real' polymorph is much better, because the changes to ability scores that it grants aren't classed as enhancement bonuses, so stack with further spells or magic items....)? Is 4th level fair? Now consider that polymorph gives freedom to choose from a huge number of forms (many of which will be more effective than the Ogre form, or give access to flight or other special movement methods in addition to physical power)
Anyway, sorry for the appearance of being off-topic - but my point (in a roundabout way) is that if polymorph is irrevocably broken, then shapechange is hardly even worth considering.
I don't think the 3E designers have worked out a 'reasonable' polymorph chain yet. In fact, if I run a game in the near future none of the polymorph chain will be available, and I would strongly consider the variant wildshape abilities from UA rather than allowing wildshape (with or without Natural Spell...) An Ogre, for example, has a LA of +2 to help represent its strength, constitution, reach (and other advantages of size) and natural armour; in addition the Ogre takes 4 levels of monstrous humanoid (a definitely sub-optimal class....) A Wizard, with a single 4th level spell, can effectively give the target at least 2-3 levels worth of increased power!
At least part of the problem IMHO is the plethora of creatures in the sourcebooks (both Core and non-Core,) and the great disparity of their abilities, strength-to-HD ratio, humanlike-enough-to-cast-spells-vs-not-humanlike-enough-to-cast-spells, etc. It also breaks the general pattern of spells, in that rather than enhancing natural ability scores, it provides for fixed physical ability scores (the only other spell which did this in 3.0E, divine power, was changed to an enhancement bonus for 3.5E)
I might favour a spell which transforms the caster into a certain fixed form, with the level of the spell depending on the bonuses thus granted. This would allow a fairer comparison with other spells. For example the ogreform spell might give enhancement bonuses of +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Natural Armour and Large size - making it in effect a combination of Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance and Barkskin, with an additional Str bonus and Dex penalty to balance it.
Now what level would you put a spell that acts as a first level and three second level spells all in one (actually, the 'real' polymorph is much better, because the changes to ability scores that it grants aren't classed as enhancement bonuses, so stack with further spells or magic items....)? Is 4th level fair? Now consider that polymorph gives freedom to choose from a huge number of forms (many of which will be more effective than the Ogre form, or give access to flight or other special movement methods in addition to physical power)
Anyway, sorry for the appearance of being off-topic - but my point (in a roundabout way) is that if polymorph is irrevocably broken, then shapechange is hardly even worth considering.
hong said:
Hey Hong,
Actually, only partially true. Shapechange says something about you getting the new type, and effectively says, "If you have a different core alignment from your new type alignment, you're affected as if by both."
So a blasphemy would affect a CG Sorcerer shapechanged into a pit fiend, because his core alignment is off -- but so would a holy word, since he has the Evil type now.
And by affect, I mean "daze" or whatever the lowest effect is, since yes, even if shapechange makes you an outsider, it probably keeps you as native, so you don't get sent to hell if somebody hits you with a Dismissal or Holy Word spell.
So I agree about extraplanarness, but I think that the alignment type actually gets slapped on there -- which can make for some interesting rules discussions. Most spells are targetted to only go off it they detect a specific alignment, and that's fine -- the CG Sorcerer in Pit Fiend form detects as Chaotic, Good, Lawful, and Evil for purposes of being affected by a given spell. But (and this is me, having played only M&M for awhile now) aren't there some spells that do two different things depending upon alignment? If there's a spell that says "Gives all Good creatures a +4 Morale Bonus to hit and on saves, and does 10d6 damage to all Evil creatures," what happens to our sorcerer? Is he affected by both? Do the effects cancel out and give a no-effect result?
This is kind of an aside to the actual conversation here, but Richard Burlew (author of the Order of the Stick) has posted a revised alter self/polymorph/shapechange chain here:
http://www.giantitp.com/Func0012.html
His analysis of the issues that arise from the use of these spells seems to be more complete than any the authors came up with when writing the spells. He reorganizes the different extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities and qualities into more internally consistent categories such as survival qualities or gross physical attacks. As he notes, different authors classify these abilities differently, which leads to problems. His system puts level-based caps on the stats that spellcasters can gain when assuming a new form. It also bases the new form's stats on the base stats of the original form. The system is more detail-intensive, but it is also more thorough and creates a "polymorph" template that helps streamline things.
Personally I like the flavor, too, like the silver dragon polymorphed into a halfling - it seems like a halfling in every way, except its a halfling that can cloudwalk and use potent spell-like abilities. An interesting mystery for the players...
http://www.giantitp.com/Func0012.html
His analysis of the issues that arise from the use of these spells seems to be more complete than any the authors came up with when writing the spells. He reorganizes the different extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities and qualities into more internally consistent categories such as survival qualities or gross physical attacks. As he notes, different authors classify these abilities differently, which leads to problems. His system puts level-based caps on the stats that spellcasters can gain when assuming a new form. It also bases the new form's stats on the base stats of the original form. The system is more detail-intensive, but it is also more thorough and creates a "polymorph" template that helps streamline things.
Personally I like the flavor, too, like the silver dragon polymorphed into a halfling - it seems like a halfling in every way, except its a halfling that can cloudwalk and use potent spell-like abilities. An interesting mystery for the players...
Good luck making the transition! I have been running a high level (20ish) campaign for a little while now. The main PC is a sorceror so I know how you feel. Shapechange was his first spell and Pit Fiend was the form he had been dreaming about for many levels previous. It took a bit of adjusting for my homebrew campaign, so here's my advice.
Pre-fab modules tend to need HEAVY adjustment to the encounters. I find all to often that they don't bear in mind the staggering might of the PC's. Even the non casters can wade thru an army of anything less than CR8. And some creatures they tend to throw in just on their rep, like Mariliths and Gelugons not realizing a powerful party can go thru them like popcorn. Even the non combat encounters and plots can be uncovered very quickly with elementary usage of powerful spells.
Your PC's are demigods at 18+ and need to be treated as such. Instead of saving the kingdom and receiving honor from the king they need to advise the king on how to save himself while they work behind the scenes to keep the real problems at bay.
I would tend to avoid banning things like Shapechange entirely, that would merely be taking the easy way out instead of flexing your creative muscles and making the world interesting without chapping your players. They come up with a way to be UBER you gotta roll with it just like you expect them to roll with whatever you throw at them. And they are the ones with the limits on what they can do, so be fair.
Pre-fab modules tend to need HEAVY adjustment to the encounters. I find all to often that they don't bear in mind the staggering might of the PC's. Even the non casters can wade thru an army of anything less than CR8. And some creatures they tend to throw in just on their rep, like Mariliths and Gelugons not realizing a powerful party can go thru them like popcorn. Even the non combat encounters and plots can be uncovered very quickly with elementary usage of powerful spells.
Your PC's are demigods at 18+ and need to be treated as such. Instead of saving the kingdom and receiving honor from the king they need to advise the king on how to save himself while they work behind the scenes to keep the real problems at bay.
I would tend to avoid banning things like Shapechange entirely, that would merely be taking the easy way out instead of flexing your creative muscles and making the world interesting without chapping your players. They come up with a way to be UBER you gotta roll with it just like you expect them to roll with whatever you throw at them. And they are the ones with the limits on what they can do, so be fair.
FrankinLondon
First Post
Saeviomagy said:
Saeviomagy
Agreed wholeheartedly on the change to the DC of Fear. Thanks very much.
I tend to agree on the dogmeat comment for creatures of will save +8, but I didn't write the dungeon, Bruce Cordell did. I'm going to have to go though the dungeon and tweak levels, wisdom ability scores and treasure just to make sure the cannon fodder doesn't simply up and leave at the start of every combat.
Frank
FrankinLondon
First Post
sanishiver said:
Sanishiver
Thanks very much for taking the time to post (that applies to everyone I haven't replied to as well). Some good food for thought here. Basically, my problem is that I don't think the dungeon has been written with your perspective on Shapechange. I truly can see the fun element, but I also want to retain the challenge element for the shapechanger without killing the rest of the party each encounter. With a Pitfiend in the party on A/C 54, SR32 and DR15, this is going to be a challenge to my ingenuity
I think I've picked up enough from this thread to enable me to re-write the dungeon so that it can handle the Pitfiend. We have three clerics in the party (one not playing this time), so I am used to each encounter starting on full hps.
BTW, the module is Bastion of Broken Souls.
Thanks again.
Frank
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