D&D 5E DM HELP! My players killed Strahd too easily!

[FormerlyHemlock]

Thank you. I keep forgetting minor things like this that could do such a thing. Doesn't help that Strahd is limited to a 20 foot movement speed, with no actions allowed to speed it up, and thus no outrun your wraith. (Killing a Vampire with a Vampire Spawn feels weird, though.)

Another possibility might be to cast a Sleep spell on the 0-HP Mist Cloud and then conjure up a Water Elemental. Whelm counts as running water by definition, right?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Every character can Dash though?

Not in mist form.

Shapechanger: If the vampire isn’t in sunlight or running water, it can use its action to polymorph into a Tiny bat or a Medium cloud of mist, or back into its true form. While in bat form, the vampire can’t speak, its walking speed is 5 feet, and it has a flying speed of 30 feet. Its statistics, other than its size and speed, are unchanged. Anything it is wearing transforms with it, but nothing it is carrying does. It reverts to its true form if it dies. While in mist form, the vampire can’t take any actions, speak, or manipulate objects. It is weightless, has a flying speed of 20 feet, can hover, and can enter a hostile creature’s space and stop there. In addition, if air can pass through a space, the mist can do so without squeezing, and it can’t pass through water. It has advantage on Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution saving throws, and it is immune to all nonmagical damage, except the damage it takes from sunlight.

Legendary Resistance (3/Day): If the vampire fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.

Misty Escape: When it drops to 0 hit points outside its resting place, the vampire transforms into a cloud of mist (as in the Shapechanger trait) instead of falling unconscious, provided that it isn’t in sunlight or running water. If it can’t transform, it is destroyed. While it has 0 hit points in mist form, it can’t revert to its vampire form, and it must reach its resting place within 2 hours or be destroyed. Once in its resting place, it reverts to its vampire form. It is then paralyzed until it regains at least 1 hit point. After spending 1 hour in its resting place with 0 hit points, it regains 1 hit point.

Technically that also means a Vampire can never take the action that would polymorph it back from a mist cloud into its true form, but no sane DM will ever apply that technicality.

 

[flametitan]

Every character can Dash though?

While in its mist form, a vampire cannot take actions. That includes dashing.

Technically that also means a Vampire can never take the action that would polymorph it back from a mist cloud into its true form, but no sane DM will ever apply that technicality.

Yet another instance of where playing strictly by RAW makes 5e more complicated than simply ruling by what makes sense.

 

[CapnZapp]

You should go back and read the part on his tactics.

Strahd fights dirty. The players should feel like the fight is unfair because it is.

Strahd has been aware of the PCs since they entered Ravenloft. He has been scrying on them and knows their weaknesses and strengths.

He attacks from the most advantageous moment and position. This means he will attack at the end of an arduous adventuring day, perhaps while the PCs are currently engaged in a different fight and after he has charmed a PC (see below).

He knows when he is in over his head. This means that he will use hit and run tactics as needed. He could come in and attack for just 1 round at a time if he wants.

He uses his charm ability on the PC with the weakest saving throw. This is perhaps his most potent ability. Do they have the Sunsword? He could get a charmed character to get rid of it for him. Etc.

He can also cast 5th level spells. Animate Objects, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Fireball, etc. (For example, imagine the PCs are resting, Strahd beats their lookout's perception because he is invisible and can float through walls and such. Then for his fist action he casts a 10d6 fireball on them. Each PC takes 35/17 damage then he is gone again, and this is after a long day and they still haven't gotten a long rest. At any time he can come back and do it again for 9d6.)

This is why Strahd is CR 15.

This is super misleading to new dungeon masters. Why?

Since you are effectively describing something cool, not explaining it. In other words, you leave everything about HOW to make this happen up to the individual dungeon master.

A new DM needs much more than "find out the PC's weaknesses and strengths". A well-built party of heroes will, to the bad guys, appear almost invincible, with many more strengths than weaknesses.

Hit and run tactics sound like a cool concept, but in the framework of 5E, it simply doesn't work. As a delaying tactic, yes, but as a way to whittle player characters down? Come on. We all know the only way to beat super-resilient foes (and PCs are among the most resilient creatures in all of D&D) is to use overwhelming force and keep doing your maximum until your enemies are all dead.

But you know what? Fighting dirty (as in frustrating any counter attacks) is not fun. Is Strahd really supposed to have to use cowardly tactics to threaten the heroes? Hell no!

What is "an advantageous position"? You or I might know. But you aren't talking to me, you're clearly addressing a new DM.

But all you're doing is making them feel bad for failing, like it somehow was their fault.

In reality, "CR 15" is meaningless. If you just run a CR 15 monster straight off the book, a party will demolish it at level ten. And indeed, they might well succeed even at level 6. This is the real problem.

The fact a new DM will probably fail at running it "right" suggests there is somebody else to blame here. Not the DM. The designers and the adventure module, for not reality checking the fact their precious CR 15 won't stand a chance against a well-built party of level 6, let alone level 10.

The fact you can make the monster work does not change the fact that if you use it in a straight-forward manner, it doesn't.

I'm sick and tired of people defending 5E monsters (and the old chestnut "even kobolds are deadly if only used right"). All it does is it lets 5E get away with being so weak on monster design. It shifts attention away from the real question: "why aren't monsters given enough oomph to truly challenge player characters right out the box?"

Then new DMs would have the tools they need with no extra effort. Even I sometimes just need a monster, but I don't have the time or the inclination to play it "right". I just want to play it "stock".

And as you gain experience and confidence, you can start using lower-CR foes when you intend to run them "right".

So, please, stop suggesting CR 15 is somehow mighty if you only "run it right". It shifts the blame away from the game and the adventure design, onto the hapless DM's that don't deserve any.

Strahd's stat block should have been designed to present a serious challenge for a CR 10 party in a straight-up fight. Ideally, a borderline unwinnable one. And there should have been more story threads as to why Strahd would allow defeated PCs to live (to try again). Which is exactly why you would want to find the items and the allies the adventure provides.

Reading about yet another DM having his BBEG be shredded by low level PCs is so... weaksauce.

Reading posts that tell DMs that BBEG just needs to be played "right" is so... disappointing.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yet another instance of where playing strictly by RAW makes 5e more complicated than simply ruling by what makes sense.

I know, that's why I get so frustrated when WotC's "official" rules channel (Crawford on Twitter) answers rules queries with technicalities.

Sane DMs should have no hesitation whatsoever about overriding RAW whenever and wherever necessary. The RAW beast needs to die, not be fed by a steady diet of dev tweets.

Edit: another example is that vampires in mist form are not immune to grappling, and have no action with which to break free, so "turn into mist at 0 HP" really just means "grapple the vampire and hold it helpless for two hours until it dies." But no sane DM would ever run it by RAW that way. Do I care that it doesn't say you can't grapple a cloud of mist? Of course not. You can't grapple a mist cloud, that's just plain ridiculous. If you force me to pencil it into my Monster Manual and call it a "variant" vampire I will, but I'll be rolling my eyes the whole time. Despite RAW, it's just not going to happen.

 

[Ganymede81]

Technically that also means a Vampire can never take the action that would polymorph it back from a mist cloud into its true form, but no sane DM will ever apply that technicality.

I think this is another specific-trumps-general situation.

The rules say two things: "While in mist form, the vampire can’t take any actions" and "[the vampire] can use its action to polymorph ... back into its true form."

The first is a general limitation on taking actions, while the second is a specific exception.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Force him to retreat to his coffin, place the Tome of Strahd on his chest, have a cleric hold up the Symbol of Ravenkind, then stab him through both the Tome and his heart at once with the Sunblade.

Meh. That's the boring way. I don't play D&D for cliches, and I would really rather run a game where the players do something creative and unexpected like Stunning Strike Strahd and stuff his hand in a Bag of Devouring until the 50% chance triggers and it eats him. To me that is waaaay more memorable and fun than a stupid RPG cliche like the Sunsword.

YMMV obviously.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

It shifts attention away from the real question: "why aren't monsters given enough oomph to truly challenge player characters right out the box?"

The monsters have plenty of "oomph" when you have players that are playing characters "right out the box".

Where things break down is when the players know how to squeeze extra potency out of their characters, and you assume their DM doesn't know how to squeeze extra potency out of the monsters to match them - or, more foolishly, that the DM shouldn't have to do that even if they've enabled more potent characters than the norm through optional- or house-rules if they don't want the characters to be just flat-out more potent relative to the challenges they face than normally assumed by the game.

It makes sense to do what 5th edition has done and make the only assumption about player and DM skill that it will be roughly equal, so that a new DM and new players are on equal footing to sort out how to play, and experienced players can squeeze more juice out of the game but an experienced DM can handle that, and (hopefully) groups of mis-matched skill will cooperate rather than compete, so the more experienced members will help the less experienced members get their bearings rather than the more experienced side intentionally using that fact to keep the game skewed in their favor while others grow frustrated.

The game material has made efforts to help DMs do what is right for their group - but the truth is that their efforts aren't infallible. DMs will make mistakes, experience surprises because of those mistakes, and learn as they play on. Trashing the game and suggesting the DM can't also improve is just as unhelpful as would be (the thing that didn't actually happen in this thread) trashing the DM and suggesting the game couldn't also improve. So let's do something else, shall we? Let's talk about what the game could actually do better in specific terms:

What could Curse of Strahd say instead of, or in addition to, the paragraphs describing Strahd's tactics that would help a DM not have the kind of unexpected result and minor mistakes that the OP describes experiencing? How can the game teach a DM to do it "right" in such a way that no portion of the reason for things going "wrong" can be said to be the DM's completely understandable, entirely not condemning, human error?

 

[cmad1977]

Small suggestion:
If you ambush the heroes again with wolves don't have them bunch up.
Wolves don't attack prey en masse from one direction. They key in on the weak(wizard) and attack from multiple/all sides.

Instead of
'A line of wolves charge you from the forest'
-fireball

Maybe
'Eyes appear in the forest all around you, wolves burst out of the trees from all around you'
'Crap! What do I do? Magic missile?? Fireball? WHY ARE THEY ALL ATTACKING MEEEEEEEEE!!'

-splat.

And when the wizard gripes about the wolves picking on him... welcome to the forest dude.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The monsters have plenty of "oomph" when you have players that are playing characters "right out the box".

Where things break down is when the players know how to squeeze extra potency out of their characters, and you assume their DM doesn't know how to squeeze extra potency out of the monsters to match them - or, more foolishly, that the DM shouldn't have to do that even if they've enabled more potent characters than the norm through optional- or house-rules if they don't want the characters to be just flat-out more potent relative to the challenges they face than normally assumed by the game.

It makes sense to do what 5th edition has done and make the only assumption about player and DM skill that it will be roughly equal, so that a new DM and new players are on equal footing to sort out how to play, and experienced players can squeeze more juice out of the game but an experienced DM can handle that, and (hopefully) groups of mis-matched skill will cooperate rather than compete, so the more experienced members will help the less experienced members get their bearings rather than the more experienced side intentionally using that fact to keep the game skewed in their favor while others grow frustrated.

Has anyone here ever read Pieter Spronck's papers on adaptive AI difficulty in games? You can set up a script of rules for an AI to follow, where some rules are more effective than others; and then as players get better at beating the game, instead of increasing the AI's power (extra resources, cheating, etc.), you let it unlock extra rules and get smarter.

The D&D equivalent of this would be things like: against new players, Minotaurs always Reckless Attack. Against skilled players, Black Minotaurs (same game stats but more cunning) cunningly calculate (or at least approximate) the optimum time to Reckless Attack (i.e. only against heavily-armored foes). Against new players, bandits just shoot whoever is closest. Against skilled players, Elite Stormtroopers (same stats as bandits but better-trained) seek cover, drop prone against missile fire on their turns, and engage spellcasters at long range (250'+) while spreading fire out enough to force inefficient expenditure of Shield spells. Against new players, a T-Rex just attacks and starts munching a PC. Against skilled players, an Awakened T-Rex with Int 10 will use its superior speed (50') and reach to grab one PC at a time and munch him to death in its jaws while avoiding the other PCs. It will take opportunity attacks if necessary in order to avoid a full Extra Attack sequence. It may target backline squishies preferentially if it can determine their threat level based on their behavior.