D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Plaguescarred]

I'm sorry, the question was would I allow the halfling to hide in the first place if it was observed moving behind the obscuring creature. My answer should have been no, because the halfling continues to be seen behind the other creature. That's how the observer knows where the halfling is, or do you imagine that no part of the halfling is visible behind the other creature?



I'm not arguing that knowing a creature's location gets you out of guessing where it is. I'm arguing that choosing the one location you're certain of isn't guessing at all.

The halfling is visible, like anyone else, when half-covered behind another creature. But it has a special ability to use that obstruction to tro to hide. Once hidden, observers loose sight, hearing and location knowledge of him by virtue of behind hidden.

FYIY Mike Mearls also tweeted that it could be done. DM could apply disadvantage for instance.

‏@YetiMoose A LtFt 1/2-ling hides behind his ally, and attacks a foe w/advantage.Can he hide in same spot again, from same foe, after atk?
@mikemearls yes, though DM should apply common sense as needed
‏@mikemearls for instance, disadvantage on checks to hide

 

[Plaguescarred]

I am assuming that the elf can't choose to be (literally) invisible either, even in falling snow. So saying that the elf "blinks off the radar" in the same way a human does who hides in darkness is not helpful. In the case of the human in the darkness, what makes him/her unable to be seen is the absence of light. What makes the elf unable to be seen (assuming s/he is not invisible)? I assume that it is some sort of "blending in" with the natural phenomena - camouflage in the broad sense that you used it upthread.

Can this be done while actually under observation from a person watching you? My feeling is that it can't.

An elf successfully hiding in lightly obscured foliage doesn't become invisible, it become unseen, which essentially gives the same benefit. It also becomes unheard, and it's lcoation unknown, which now must be guessed since it's no longer known. What makes him hidden is the light obscurement. If it was to be removed, it would instantly be seen just like a human hiding while heavily obscured after the darkness is suddenly lit up. Similarly, if an observer, the halfling or the covering ally was to move in a manner that would no longer provide obscurement to the halfling, it would also automatically be seen.

 

[pemerton]

An elf successfully hiding in lightly obscured foliage doesn't become invisible, it become unseen, which essentially gives the same benefit. It also becomes unheard, and it's lcoation unknown, which now must be guessed since it's no longer known. What makes him hidden is the light obscurement.

This is all just restating the rules. It doesn't tell me anything about what is happening in the fiction.

 

[Caliban]

This is all just restating the rules. It doesn't tell me anything about what is happening in the fiction.

It's literally magic. You've read all those fantasy stories where the host of elven scouts seem to suddenly appear around you when traveling in the woods? Then they take a single step and disappear back into the underbrush?

It's an attempt to replicate that.

For real-world humans it would take camouflage gear and a few minutes of preparation to be concealed that completely.

Fantasy world humans with the stealth skill can do it in 6 seconds regardless of what they are wearing, if they aren't being observed.

Wood elves can be wearing a bright orange vest and clown shoes, and fade into the foliage before your very eyes.

I'm not going to pretend the rules don't lend themselves to allowing some pretty wonky scenarios when it comes stealth, because they do.

The stealth rules are intentionally vague to let the DM adjudicate on a case by case basis (which means stealth is either super useful or pointless depending on the DM), and then you have racial abilities that specifically allow you to hide in situations that you shouldn't be able to hide in, contradicting the rest of the stealth rules.

 

[Plaguescarred]

This is all just restating the rules. It doesn't tell me anything about what is happening in the fiction.

What is happening in the fiction is up to the DM to determine, the rules are just mechanic to adjucate actions.

Personally i don't need magic to explain Skulker, Mask of the Wild or Naturally Stealthy because they still make use of some sort of obscurement to hide, and so camouflage, or the act or blending in their respective obscurement is enought for me to explain in the fiction how one can loose track of them.

I'd be more inclined to invoke magic if some feature would let someone try to hide with no invisibility or obscurement at all, going from clearly seen to unseen momentarily.

 

[Flamestrike]

Wrong. Once they have total cover, you are no longer able to watch them.

By your gamist interpretation of the rules.

By my simulationist plain english reading of the rules, this is irellevant. I saw them go into hiding. Ergo they cant take the Hide action (relative to me) while in their box. At no stage are they hidden. I know where they are.

No advantage, not hidden, and (if an elf of halfling) they remain perfectly visible.

Someone has Greater Invisibility on them. You may know, with 100% certainty, exactly where they are, but they still get advantage because you can't see them attack.

Which is a consequence of the invisible condition (or any time your opponent cant see you).

In this case, the Elf behind light obscurement is not hidden (and never was) so he is plainly visible to me. I saw him duck behind his ficus/ behind the rain so he cant hide there. If he cant hide there, he remains visible to me at all times.

He only vanishes if he can hide. And he cant hide because Im observing him, just like a human cant hide from me by crawling into a box in full view of me.

Same thing with the hypothetical rogue - if they can break LOS or have something that allows them to hide with partial cover or obscurement even while being observed (lightfoot halflings and wood elves, etc), then they can make a stealth check and you can no longer observe them, even if you know with 100% certainty where they are. That grants them advantage as long as they can maintain stealth until their next attack.

Again, I disagree. My interpretation of the rules tells me that you cant hide from a creature that is observing you. So If I watch them go into their hiding spot, they are not hidden (in game terms they cant take the hide action relative to me; or more accurately they can take the hide action it just automatically fails) and accordingly remain visible.

You may disagree on what allows them to make the stealth check, but that's how the rules are written. .

For the billionth time, the rules are written in a manner that allows for different interpretations (the main ones being yours and mine). This is intentional by the Devs.

If you want a 'break LOS/ mash the hide button' intepretation, you can read the rules that way. If you prefer a common sense interpretation, then you can read the rules that way.

You're entitled to your interpretation. And I'm entitled to mine. There is no 'one true Hiding RAW' despite you claiming it exists.

 

[Maxperson]

Exactly. So by RAW, they cant hide. You cant hide [not 'take the hide action'; 'hide'] when youre being watched.

As I watched them go into hiding, they cant take the hide action in that box.

I mean, they're in there. They have total cover. But hiding is a no-no.

So no advantage.

Unless you are an elf or halfling of course. Specific beats general.

 

[Maxperson]

Wrong. Once they have total cover, you are no longer able to watch them. You literally can't see them. You are watching whatever is giving them total cover - and that cover will indeed be unable to hide as long as you keep watching.

Someone has Greater Invisibility on them. You may know, with 100% certainty, exactly where they are, but they still get advantage because you can't see them attack.

Same thing with the hypothetical rogue - if they can break LOS or have something that allows them to hide with partial cover or obscurement even while being observed (lightfoot halflings and wood elves, etc), then they can make a stealth check and you can no longer observe them, even if you know with 100% certainty where they are. That grants them advantage as long as they can maintain stealth until their next attack.

You may disagree on what allows them to make the stealth check, but that's how the rules are written. Being "peeved" isn't going to change it.

Here I'm going to disagree with you by quoting rulings over rules. Yes, the rule says that attacking from hiding gives advantage. However, if someone in a group I am DMing for hides behind the one rock on a flat plain while the orc is watching, I'm not going to grant advantage for that attack. The PC is hidden, sure, but the orc is going to be expecting the PC to emerge and attack, which would negate any advantage. At some point you need to use reason and not allow situations like that to allow nonsensical results because rules.

 

[Maxperson]

By my simulationist plain english reading of the rules, this is irellevant. I saw them go into hiding. Ergo they cant take the Hide action (relative to me) while in their box. At no stage are they hidden. I know where they are.

Hidden only requires unseen and unheard. No rule says that when a creature can't see you any longer, you can't hide because it was formerly able to see you.

He only vanishes if he can hide. And he cant hide because Im observing him, just like a human cant hide from me by crawling into a box in full view of me.

The rules only say that you can't hide from a creature that can see you, not that you can't hide from a creature that could see you a moment ago. If you can get out of sight, the rules say you can hide. Knowing where you went out of sight at is not something the rule care about in the slightest.

For the billionth time,

the rules are written in a manner that allows for different interpretations (the main ones being yours and mine). This is intentional by the Devs.

Some people still interpret the world as flat. Being able to interpret something differently doesn't make you right when you do it.

 

[Lanliss]

I'd be more inclined to invoke magic if some feature would let someone try to hide with no invisibility or obscurement at all, going from clearly seen to unseen momentarily.

Like the revised Rangers "Hide in Plain sight" ability?