D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Flamestrike]

Unless you are an elf or halfling of course. Specific beats general.

The specific just changes what they can hide in. It doesnt change the fact that they cant do it while being directly observed.

They can (of course) hide while observers are 'nearby'. As can a human crawl into a box while observers are 'nearby' (and hide).

Neither can do so while those observers are staring at him. You cant attempt to hide (not 'hide action' as a game term, but 'go into hiding' as I understand the term in plain english) from a creature that is watching you.

Once hidden (assuming they can, by virtue of not being observed going into hiding) then our Elf becomes pseudo-invisible (even - to quote the Sage advice - from 'eyes staring straight at the elf!') to anyone with a lower passive perception than his stealth check result.

If the elf cant hide (by virtue of me watching him jump behind his ficus) then he remains perfectly visible.

 

[Maxperson]

The specific just changes what they can hide in. It doesnt change the fact that they cant do it while being directly observed.

Yes it does. It expressly says in the sage advice that they can attempt to hide while being stared at.

Neither can do so while those observers are staring at him. You cant attempt to hide (not 'hide action' as a game term, but 'go into hiding' as I understand the term in plain english) from a creature that is watching you.

They can in fact attempt to hide while being stared at. This cannot be disputed. That's the specific usage, "Attempt to hide", not "remain hidden". Once hidden, they can attempt to remain hidden by comparing the hide roll to perception.

 

[Flamestrike]

Hidden only requires unseen and unheard. No rule says that when a creature can't see you any longer, you can't hide because it was formerly able to see you.

Crawling into a hiding spot is part of you hiding.

Just like in real life. If you are standing near a box, and I am watching you, and you try to hide from me in the box.

Youre interpreting 'hide' in the rules as 'the hide action'. Im interpreting it as meaning what it means in the real world. In the real world there is no parsing between you crawling into a box and hiding. They're one and the same thing.

I saw you go into hiding. Ergo you cant hide from me once you're there.

The rules only say that you can't hide from a creature that can see you, not that you can't hide from a creature that could see you a moment ago.

Try reading the word 'hide' in a plain english manner. As you would if you and I were at my house playing hide and seek, and we were in a room with 10 large boxes.

You crawling into one of those boxes is you going into hiding. If I watch you do it, you are not hidden from me (no hide action allowed).

If you do it while Im outside of the room (and not observing you) you can be hidden from me (hide action allowed)

Where we differ in our interpretations is how we interpret the word 'hide'. Youre giving it a gamist interpretation (the hide action). Im using a plain english interpretation.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yes it does. It expressly says in the sage advice that they can attempt to hide while being stared at.

No it doesnt. It says that a hidden Elf, (once hidden) remains hidden despite being stared at. The text assumes the person looking at the elf is looking at a [hidden elf]. Thats why he cant be seen. He's already hidden.

It doesnt say that the Elf can attempt to hide while being stared at. It only states that he can attempt to hide while observers are 'nearby'. Not while they are staring straight at him.

Once hidden, its a different kettle of fish.

They can in fact attempt to hide while being stared at. This cannot be disputed.

Watch me.

The text is capable of different interpretations. There is nothing you can do to make that not be the case.

Welcome to postmodernism.

 

[Maxperson]

Crawling into a hiding spot is part of you hiding.

Just like in real life. If you are standing near a box, and I am watching you, and you try to hide from me in the box.

Youre interpreting 'hide' in the rules as 'the hide action'. Im interpreting it as meaning what it means in the real world. In the real world there is no parsing between you crawling into a box and hiding. They're one and the same thing.

I saw you go into hiding. Ergo you cant hide from me once you're there.

Two things. First, applying realism to your game is fine and good. I do it, too. However, it doesn't change the rules to make them match your realism. Applying realism just makes your rule a house rule. Second, in real life if you watch me go hide in a box, I'm still hidden in that box. You just know where I'm hiding, making it very easy for you to discover me if you choose to.

Try reading the word 'hide' in a plain english manner. As you would if you and I were at my house playing hide and seek, and we were in a room with 10 large boxes.

You crawling into one of those boxes is you going into hiding. If I watch you do it, you are not hidden from me (no hide action allowed).

In plain english, yes I am hidden from you. You just have a much easier time at discovering me. Until you walked over and opened the box that I'm hiding in, I wouldn't be discovered by the rules of hide and seek. You actually have to find me.

Where we differ in our interpretations is how we interpret the word 'hide'. Youre giving it a gamist interpretation (the hide action). Im using a plain english interpretation.

No. I'm using plain english. You can know where something is hidden, and it's still hidden.

hide1
hīd/Submit
verb
1.
put or keep out of sight; conceal from the view or notice of others.

That's all it takes to hide in plain english. Be out of view. The game adds not being heard to that, making gamist hiding harder than real life hiding.

 

[Maxperson]

No it doesnt. It says that a hidden Elf, (once hidden) remains hidden despite being stared at. The text assumes the person looking at the elf is looking at a [hidden elf]. Thats why he cant be seen. He's already hidden.

You're going to have to quote me where it says "once hidden", because I don't see it anywhere.

 

[Flamestrike]

You're going to have to quote me where it says "once hidden", because I don't see it anywhere.

If the elf isnt hidden, he's perfectly visible in light natural obscurement.

Ergo for the elf to be 'not seen, despite eyes staring straight at him' he is already hidden.

Its the context of the sage advice youre missing. The sentence breaks down to: [The elf remains hidden, despite eyes staring straight at him.]

An Elf in an empty room jumps behind a 3 foot tall ficus (light natural obscurement) in the middle of the room. He hides there (stealth check 15).

An Orc walks into the room, and spends an hour admiring the ficus (he's a bit of a plant buff). His passive perception is only 10, so he fails to see the Elf despite his eyes staring straight at the Elf.

If the Elf was a Human, the Orc would see him straight away. The Orc would see this:



Because our hero is an Elf, the Orc instead sees this:

 

[Lanliss]

If the elf isnt hidden, he's perfectly visible in light natural obscurement.

Ergo for the elf to be 'not seen, despite eyes staring straight at him' he is already hidden.

Its the context of the sage advice youre missing. The sentence breaks down to: [The elf remains hidden, despite eyes staring straight at him.]

An Elf in an empty room jumps behind a 3 foot tall ficus (light natural obscurement) in the middle of the room. He hides there (stealth check 15).

An Orc walks into the room, and spends an hour admiring the ficus (he's a bit of a plant buff). His passive perception is only 10, so he fails to see the Elf despite his eyes staring straight at the Elf.

If the Elf was a Human, the Orc would see him straight away. The Orc would see this:

View attachment 78936

Because our hero is an Elf, the Orc instead sees this:

View attachment 78937

Helpful visualization. +10 to Debate roll.

 

[Caliban]

Here I'm going to disagree with you by quoting rulings over rules. Yes, the rule says that attacking from hiding gives advantage. However, if someone in a group I am DMing for hides behind the one rock on a flat plain while the orc is watching, I'm not going to grant advantage for that attack. The PC is hidden, sure, but the orc is going to be expecting the PC to emerge and attack, which would negate any advantage. At some point you need to use reason and not allow situations like that to allow nonsensical results because rules.

If you are the DM, you are free to ignore the rules. Or more to the point - you are free to adjudicate specific cases as you see fit. Personally, I don't like denying characters of their skills and abilities, but I might give the orc a bonus on their passive perception.

Or just have the orc walk around the rock (at a safe distance) until the PC no longer has enough cover to hide.

 

[Maxperson]

Helpful visualization. +10 to Debate roll.

The only problem is that the orc sees the same two pictures when the elf ATTEMPTS TO HIDE(per the rules) while being stared at, and the elf vanishes.