D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Lanliss]

If an elf is being observed - ie someone is looking at and noticing the elf - then what does s/he actually do, in the fiction, to become hidden behind falling snow or a tree branch?

If s/he is not under observation, I understand that s/he "blends in" like your Where's Wally example.

But if s/he is under observation, how does s/he blend in? The observer can follow the elf and his/her movements, defeating the attempted blending.

They can try to follow the movements. That is their perception vs. The elves stealth.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Like the revised Rangers "Hide in Plain sight" ability?

Not really because Hide in Plain Sight is also camouflage, using artificial agent like mud or dirty and a solid surface to press against.

 

[Plaguescarred]

The game says (1) that a person who is clearly seen be another person can't hide from that person.

The rules also say (2) that a person who is hidden from another person can't be seen by that person.

As best I can tell, neither of the above is in dispute.

What is in disupte is whether an elf, who is being observed (ie actually noticed) by a person can hide when there is nothing except snowfall or foliage to provide (light) obscurement. And a significant driver of this dispute is that even an elf in a snowfall is visible unless hidden.

Taken that the elf can try to hide when lightly obscured, and when you are lightly obscured you can still be seen, it effectively mean that an elf can try to hide when still seen.

Some people (including @Maxperson and @Plaguescarred) think that the elf is able to hide despite being seen, as an exception to (1). When asked, but how in the fiction does the exception work, the answer is that the elf "steps behind" the snow and "blinks from the radar" much as an ordinary person who is in darkness and hence unable to be seen. To me, this seems like magical at-will camouflage.

Throw also in there Mike Mearls via twitter and Jeremy Crawford via Sage Advice.

Others (eg @Hriston, @Flamestrike) think that, until the elf can satisfy the "not actually under observation" requirement, s/he can't attempt to hide with any prospect of success because (1) is not satisfied.

Taken that anyone can try to hide when not seen, this feature would be useless by creating extra conditions to be met in order to try to hide, rather than facilitate it, like it should. It's a specific rule overiding the general rule on Stealth, nothing more nothing less.

Hency why Sage Advice says;


Normally, you can’t hide from someone if you’re in full view. A lightfoot halfling, though, can try to vanish behind a creature that is at least one size larger, and a wood elf can try to hide simply by being in heavy rain, mist, falling snow, foliage, or similar natural phenomena.

Both subraces are capable of hiding in situations unavailable to most other creatures, but neither subrace’s hiding attempt is assured of success”

Do the lightfoot halfling and wood elf hiding racial traits allow them to hide while observed? The lightfoot halfling and wood elf traits—Naturally Stealthy and Mask of the Wild—do allow members of those subraces to try to hide in their special circumstances even when observers are nearby.

 

[Maxperson]

But if s/he is under observation, how does s/he blend in? The observer can follow the elf and his/her movements, defeating the attempted blending.

It's at least a quasi-magical ability and at most outright magic. The observer cannot follow the elf and defeat the attempted blending without a successful perception check.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't follow this.

If you are seen by someone, that is sufficient for you not to be hidden from them. Hence, if you are hidden from them it can't be the case that they can see you.

I THINK this is what he is trying to say. If the elf his hiding behind that plant in the picture, he is not invisible. Little parts of the elf are visible through the foliage while the elf his hidden. However, because the elf is hidden, a perception check is needed to see if the orc actually sees those visible parts and discovers the hiding elf, or if the orc fails to see those visible parts and the elf remains hidden. Unseen doesn't necessarily mean that no part of the hider is visible.

 

[Maxperson]

Normally, you can’t hide from someone if you’re in full view. A lightfoot halfling, though, can try to vanish behind a creature that is at least one size larger, and a wood elf can try to hide simply by being in heavy rain, mist, falling snow, foliage, or similar natural phenomena.

Both subraces are capable of hiding in situations unavailable to most other creatures, but neither subrace’s hiding attempt is assured of success”

Do the lightfoot halfling and wood elf hiding racial traits allow them to hide while observed? The lightfoot halfling and wood elf traits—Naturally Stealthy and Mask of the Wild—do allow members of those subraces to try to hide in their special circumstances even when observers are nearby.

Right. We have the ability to hide in full view. "In full view" means you are being fully directly observed. Someone who is not observed is not in full view of anyone. If you are being directly observed, you are not yet hidden. Then we have the halfling vanishing behind a creature. One cannot vanish except when directly observed. You can only vanish from view. If it were talking about hiding while not being directly observed, the word vanish would not have been used. Next we have "can try to hide" with the wood elf. Trying to hide is an action. Staying hidden involves no action, so it's highly unlikely that the phrase means attempting to stay hidden. Further, as part of the same sentence as the halfling vanishing and the same paragraph as normally you can't hide in full view, the CONTEXT is that the halfling and elf can in fact use their ability to hide while being observed. Lastly, we have the sentence saying that they can hide while observers are nearby. One can only be an observer if you are actually observing. Otherwise you are only a potential observer. If a roll were needed to make you an observer, it would not have said straight out that the subraces were hiding from observers. That sentence would have read, "Naturally Stealthy and Mask of the Wild—do allow members of those subraces to try to hide in their special circumstances even when potential observers are nearby."

 

[Plaguescarred]

I don't follow this.

If you are seen by someone, that is sufficient for you not to be hidden from them. Hence, if you are hidden from them it can't be the case that they can see you.

Correct once the elf successfulyl hide in lightly obscured foliage, he is not seen anymore because being hidden means you're unseen & unheard and your location unknown. It might be there to see for anyone if they can spot it though. See this little gem here from Maxperson;

Little parts of the elf are visible through the foliage while the elf his hidden. However, because the elf is hidden, a perception check is needed to see if the orc actually sees those visible parts and discovers the hiding elf,

 

[Hriston]

My own feeling on this - nothing more than an intuition, and not based on extensive textual study, nor a lot of play experiencde - is that the elf can't help but become invisible (ie it is the default state for them when moving through vegetation).

I think that perception comes from presentation of elves primarily as a monster. There's an expectation that if you encounter some elves in a natural area with vegetation that they will be hidden to begin with and possibly attack from hiding, possibly with surprise. For example, in Chainmail, elves can't attack while invisible, but have the ability to become visible and attack in the same turn. Thus, we get the language of D&D, Vol. 2, that says, "Elves... are nearly invisible...," as if that's the natural state for an elf. IMO, this should be understood to be speaking about elves encountered, as in when elves are encountered, they will be nearly invisible (i.e. hiding in the vegetation). In Chainmail and the MM, it is more clearly an ability that elves can choose to use or not, for example in the MM, "Elves can... blend into the vegetation", rather than just saying elves are as invisible. The abliity is absent from the PHB entry for the PC race, maybe as an oversight or maybe for balance reasons. I'm sure there are lots of elf players who import the ability over from the MM anyway.

But once the elf announces him-/herself then I would think s/he can't just vanish. Something else would have to happen - at least some sort of distraction.

The elf may be able to parlay from hidden, but I agree that once having announced and revealed itself by attacking, the elf unit can't regain invisibility until after it breaks off from the attack, i.e. the melee is over.

Slightly related - I think that AD&D takes the opposite approach from 4e and 5e, in that the latter assume that, in combat, everyone is paying attention in every direction, whereas I think AD&D assumes that combat creates better-than-average opportunities for someone who is not him-/herself trading blows to slink into the shadows, escape into obscuring vegetation etc.

Well, the elf can't use its hiding ability in combat in AD&D, so I guess it makes sense that it can't do it in 5e either.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, the elf can't use its hiding ability in combat in AD&D, so I guess it makes sense that it can't do it in 5e either.

I looked at the elf in AD&D and they can in fact use the ability in combat, just not while attacking..............just like in 5e. Go figure, right? The AD&D language is as follows:

"When in natural surroundings such as a wood or meadow, elves can move silently (surprise on a 1-4) and blend into the vegetation so as to be invisible (requiring the ability to see invisible objects to locate them) as long as they are not attacking."

There's no language there that prevents them from blending into the vegetation so as to be invisible during combat. 2e has the same limitation. Not while attacking. So going by your logic, since AD&D elves can using their hiding ability in combat and while observed, it makes sense that 5e elves can do it, too.

 

[Hriston]

I looked at the elf in AD&D and they can in fact use the ability in combat, just not while attacking..............just like in 5e. Go figure, right? The AD&D language is as follows:

"When in natural surroundings such as a wood or meadow, elves can move silently (surprise on a 1-4) and blend into the vegetation so as to be invisible (requiring the ability to see invisible objects to locate them) as long as they are not attacking."

There's no language there that prevents them from blending into the vegetation so as to be invisible during combat. 2e has the same limitation. Not while attacking. So going by your logic, since AD&D elves can using their hiding ability in combat and while observed, it makes sense that 5e elves can do it, too.

If the elves have stopped attacking and have disengaged from the melee in order to hide, I would generally say that combat has ended. Now while I admit that the ability as conceived in Chainmail allows elves to hide in a combat situation that encompasses multiple melees, in D&D a combat encounter is generally limited to one melee, so that's how I figured other posters have been using the phrase "in combat". Personally, I don't find it very useful to determine whether the elf can use the ability "in combat" or not.