D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Maxperson]

Well, [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION]'s answer is "no" - lightly obscured may or may not make you not seen clearly, depending on whether or not a Perception check (if required) succeeds. But if a person is seen despite light obscurement - because any required Perception check succeeded despite disadvantage - then they are, ipso facto, seen clearly.

Yes, but the reality of language says he is wrong. Someone lightly obscured can be seen, but not clearly. "Obscured" and "seen clearly" are mutually exclusive circumstances. One cannot be both at the same time.

Hence Hriston's view that, in a case where a person is seen clearly despite light perception, s/he cannot suddenly disappear even if a wood elf or a skulker. In other words, Hriston does not regard those abilities as establishing an exception to the "seen clearly" requirement. The reasoning seems fairly sound to me.

Anything resulting from a fatally flawed premise like that is highly likely to be wrong. In this case we have errata saying that you can attempt to hide even while being observed, so it goes from highly likely to be wrong, to just plain wrong.

But as far as the Sage Advice is concerned - the presence of observers nearby does not entail that one is being observed. (In this context, "observers" becomes equivalent to "potential observers".) Crawford could, so easily, have written "the elf can hide in those special circumstances even when under observation" but chose not to. That choice is surely deliberate: a deliberate choice to maintain the ambiguity in the rules, and hence to leave [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION]'s reading an open one.

And if it just left it at "observers nearby", you'd have an argument. It doesn't, though. It says that you can make the attempt to hide even while someone is staring directly at you. That's direct observation.

 

[Hriston]

You're not just disagreeing with us but with Jeremy Crawford's twitter and WoTC's Sage Advice about the fact that they can try to hide when observers are nearby.

No, I'm fine with "observers nearby". That doesn't disagree with my interpretation at all. I'm also fine with "eyes looking right at the elf" because at that point the elf is hidden by nature. I don't think I've seen the tweet you mention, however, so I don't know if I disagree with that or not, if it even exists.

 

[Hriston]

Nah. You can either accept the fact or not. I've done some research and it's too much work for someone who's just going to poo poo it anyway.

Work to substantiate your own claim wouldn't be done for my benefit, although it might give us something to talk about. It would be for your benefit because if you could support your claim it would mean that what you're saying has validity and isn't just something you made up and are trying to pass off as fact. On the other hand, if you're just going to keep stating your unsupported opinion as fact, we have nothing left to discuss.

 

[Plaguescarred]

No, I'm fine with "observers nearby". That doesn't disagree with my interpretation at all.

That's because you choose to interpret "observers nearby" as being people that are not seeing when the Q&A is about being observed. That is why it later says "even eyes staring right at the elf"

I'm also fine with "eyes looking right at the elf" because at that point the elf is hidden by nature.

That's because you choose to interpret it as hidden already, when the sentence is instead relating to "a wood elf can try to hide" in the previous sentence.

"Normally, you can’t hide from someone if you’re in full view. A lightfoot halfling, though, can try to vanish behind a creature that is at least one size larger, and a wood elf can try to hide simply by being in heavy rain, mist, falling snow, foliage, or similar natural phenomena. It’s as if nature itself cloaks a wood elf from prying eyes—even eyes staring right at the elf!"

I don't think I've seen the tweet you mention, however, so I don't know if I disagree with that or not, if it even exists.

Here is the tweet https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/530380120729477120


@Dan_Dillon Do the halfling and wood elf hiding racial traits allow them to hide while observed? If not, what is the actual benefit?
‏@JeremyECrawford The halfling and wood elf traits do allow members of those races to try to hide even when observers are nearby.

 

[seebs]

Since anyone can hide when not directly observed, calling out that some people can hide under particular circumstances, when anyone could hide in those circumstances if not directly observed, is meaningless unless it's intended to communicate that they can hide even when directly observed. Which is what Sage Advice has clearly communicated is the intent.

In short, use Gricean maxims: Yes, the interpretation that he didn't mean that is grammatically possible... But if he didn't mean that, why make the post at all, since the post doesn't tell you anything that wasn't already completely clear? And why have those rules at all, since they don't actually give those races any abilities that other people don't have too?

 

[Maxperson]

Work to substantiate your own claim wouldn't be done for my benefit, although it might give us something to talk about. It would be for your benefit because if you could support your claim it would mean that what you're saying has validity and isn't just something you made up and are trying to pass off as fact. On the other hand, if you're just going to keep stating your unsupported opinion as fact, we have nothing left to discuss.

It is entirely for your benefit. Everyone else here that has responded has accepted it already. They know that it was said and applies to 5e. Facts don't cease to be facts just because someone doesn't back them up, by the way.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Since anyone can hide when not directly observed, calling out that some people can hide under particular circumstances, when anyone could hide in those circumstances if not directly observed, is meaningless unless it's intended to communicate that they can hide even when directly observed. Which is what Sage Advice has clearly communicated is the intent.

In short, use Gricean maxims: Yes, the interpretation that he didn't mean that is grammatically possible... But if he didn't mean that, why make the post at all, since the post doesn't tell you anything that wasn't already completely clear? And why have those rules at all, since they don't actually give those races any abilities that other people don't have too?

Well said sir, well said. Let me grant you XP and Inspiration for it!

 

[Hriston]

That's because you choose to interpret "observers nearby" as being people that are not seeing when the Q&A is about being observed. That is why it later says "even eyes staring right at the elf"

First, if we're going to talk about the form of the question, it doesn't ask if they can "try to hide" while observed (not that I think it matters, but you seem to). It asks if they are allowed to hide while observed. It's actually a fairly poorly worded question. Crawford couldn't very well have answered yes because he'd have been saying they could be both hidden and observed at the same time, which can't be right. If he'd simply said no, it would have done nothing to explain what the actual benefits of the traits are. This is why he chose to give a longer, more nuanced answer, and in doing so reframed the question as one of whether the traits could be used with observers nearby, rather than "while observed". Eyes can be "not seeing" just as well as observers can, especially when looking at something hidden, which is remarkably similar to the way the game refers to a creature that's trying to see something it can't as essentially having the blinded condition.

That's because you choose to interpret it as hidden already, when the sentence is instead relating to "a wood elf can try to hide" in the previous sentence.

Yes, I believe the wood elf is cloaked as if by nature only after becoming hidden, rather than before.

Here is the tweet https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/530380120729477120


@Dan_Dillon Do the halfling and wood elf hiding racial traits allow them to hide while observed? If not, what is the actual benefit?
‏@JeremyECrawford The halfling and wood elf traits do allow members of those races to try to hide even when observers are nearby.

Thanks. This is clearly the exchange of tweets that was expanded into the Sage Advice article, and it has the same issue of Crawford reframing and not really answering the original question. I find it interesting that in the Sage Advice article the second part of the question was edited out, whereas Crawford's answer mostly elaborates on what the actual benefits of the traits are albeit in the same ambiguous language used in the original rules.

 

[Hriston]

It is entirely for your benefit. Everyone else here that has responded has accepted it already. They know that it was said and applies to 5e. Facts don't cease to be facts just because someone doesn't back them up, by the way.

Oh, so now it's a "fact" that everyone else accepts your version of reality. Fascinating. Strangely, I recall several posters who have not agreed with your "facts". The ones who do have apparently not commented.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Eyes can be "not seeing" just as well as observers can

Why are you assuming Sage Advice's use of "observers nearby" are people not seeing when it even later specify "directly starring" i don't know but the word observer according to Oxford rather means the contrary anyway https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/observer

Observer: A person who watches or notices something