D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[cmad1977]

Agreed. And moving away will provoke an opportunity attack unless the target is surprised (or did I miss a feature that obviates this?)

Exactly. My rogue tends to conflate his hide with disengage and I constantly have to remind him that it doesn't work that way. He either get to disengage, or hide with the cunning action.

I have to be a bit of a 'bonus action nazi'.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Horwath]

Agreed. And moving away will provoke an opportunity attack unless the target is surprised (or did I miss a feature that obviates this?)

3rd level Swashbuckler rogue from SCAG

mobility feat,

target spent his/hers reaction.


Also while in darkness if you're wood elf or have skulker feat you can hide right infront of your target.

Maybe with disadvantage.

 

[bganon]

Yes, "hiding" is a lot more than just ducking behind cover, that's why it's an action all by itself. A Rogue can move, stab, and use cunning action to dash back into cover, but there's no Hide in that case; the enemies know exactly where that Rogue is, no Perception check necessary. Hiding implies some kind of active deception about where the character actually is.

 

[Flamestrike]

I like the idea of holding the monsters turn, or reading thier actions for when the rogue comes out of hiding.

Ive never really held the monsters turn or readied an action, thinking that once its thier turn, they would naturally want to use thier full nova on the players....

...but this is something that i definitely have to consider.

As soon as the hidden rogue attacks he is no longer hidden. Enemy creatures are now aware of his presence and generally speaking he cannot again attempt the hide action while those creatures are aware of his presence and keeping tabs on him.

Even if the rogue then moved behind pillar (While the enemy creatures were watching him) and obtained total cover relative to those creatures, generally speaking he cannot attempt the hide action. The enemy creatures saw him go into his hiding spot. He is not hidden. The preconditions for hiding are not met.

The DM is free to rule that the creatures were not watching the rogue and therefore he may hide in this circumstance. But the general rule is creatures in combat are alert to the presence of every unhidden creature and you can't attempt to hide from a creature that watches you go into hiding (For obvious reasons).

Remember the rules for hiding are clear. A rogue cannot for example crawl into a box in full view of the enemy, shut the lid and attempt the hide action. The rogue will have total cover relative to that creature, but he cannot even attempt to hide action. The creature was alert to his presence and saw the rogue going to hiding. This totally foils the hide action.

 

[CapnZapp]

You're the DM. You CAN modify monsters so that they present appropriate challenges....

I think we all would much rather have the stock MM monsters present appropriate challenges for player characters only using their stock abilities straight out of the PHB, with each DM not having to fix this (repeating needless work over and over). Don't you?

 

[CapnZapp]

So, i know that rogues are the best at hiding, moving in slowly, hitting with a nasty Sneak Attack, and then, hiding as a bonus action to avoid getting hit themselves.

It's their thing. I get it.

However, it doesn't seem that any of the monsters presented in the MM or elsewhere really have a good enough Perception skill to find my rogue player.

I am DMing "Out of the Abyss", and at this point, they are levels 11 going on 12, so i expect them to be top notch characters, but this has been going on for a while now....

Most monsters just dont have the Perception to find the rogue when he hides. Worse, some monsters dont even have the Perception skill and must use thier weak Wisdom scores (at best a +3 or +4) to even try.

I've tried things like giving my rogue disadvantage while hiding in watery puddled places...

I've also had the monster go look around for the rogue at the spot where he last was seen, forcing my rogue to re-roll on his hide check...

..but rogues are just too damn good at it! Especially, when sneaking around in the Underdark.

I just dont know what to do at this point.

I want to hit my damn rogue so bad, but he's always hiding! And its like every round because he can do this as a bonus action with Cunning Action (granted at 2nd level!)

Any suggestions?
Anyone else have this problem?

Well, there are two things to consider.

First, yes, the Stealth vs Perception "battle" became very lopsided in this edition.

But before we fix that, we need to remember that the Rogue is built on Stealth. And in order to make that a fun character to play, it needs to be reliable.

In other words, make Stealth just a little less good, a little less reliable, and you could just as well have played a Fighter. And a Fighter does just as much damage (if not more) with infinitely better staying power.

(Remember, 5E mostly does away with niche protection - you can build a decent stealther on top of any class thanks to Backgrounds.)

What I'm trying to get at is: while I'm sure Stealth is borked, I'm not sure it is for Rogues.

I would be wary of flushing Rogues out from the shadows. What I would recommend, though, is to make the change to Stealth that you no longer need to beat the best Perception in the party - you only need to beat the party member you want to stalk/ambush/pounce.

My justification is this: 5E did away with almost all numeric penalties. While this is mostly a good thing, the way you don't get any detailed environmental penalties on Perception makes Perception too good compared to Stealth.

Previously you could bog down play with -2 for every N feet of distance, another -2 here for ambient noise (dripping water, wind rustling the leaves) and a third -2 there for bad lighting, soft ground or any other circumstancial penalty. I don't think any one of us wants to go back to that stuff.

But what "that stuff" did, was, it allowed the DM to justify why only Bob the Fighter was given a Perception roll when the wolves were about to jump him, and not the living radar high-wisdom Cleric of the group.

My solution is, in the spirit of 5E, simple to the point of being "crude but effective".

Allow only the party member about to be jumped to make a Perception roll (or only use her passive score).

Even if Radar is close by, try arguing he doesn't get a roll at all, and even if the players force you, give him disadvantage.

And don't allow him to use his passive score (by actively rolling you can get a lower result than 10, especially with disadvantage).

This would help immensely with the classic scenario "the wolves are circling the camp fire".

It would not, however, flush out the Rogue. But I'm not sure that would be a good thing.

To fix that issue, you will simply have to revert WotC's decision to be very stingy with skill proficiencies. Add +5 or even +10 to select monsters to give them a fighting chance of beating the Rogue's Stealth check. Just be sure to telegraph this at least somewhat.

Giving +10 Perception to all Kobolds is not fun for the Rogue. Giving +10 Perception to even one Kobold is not fun either, unless the Rogue can scout out which one.

If the Rogue isn't given at least a minimal chance of taking out the enemy's eyes and ears, you could just as well dump Stealth from the game, and then you could just as well tell the player "I don't like having Rogues in the party, please choose another class to play".

Good luck!

 

[Klaudius Rex]

Good points.

I am not at all going to touch or otherwise Nerf the rogue class. it should stand on its own, as is.

I will probably change a few monsters perception scores, or give them advantage especially, if in their lairs or other familiar territory.

The big thing that i got out of this is to make sure to account for all players actions (Standard, Move, Bonus if any).

I actually talked to my player who played the rogue this weekend. He completely understood that simply moving behind cover doesn't automatically equate to "hiding". It just means cover. Monsters don't need a perception check to find the rogue because in combat, its assumed that everyone is watching out for their lives, and they just saw the rogue take cover (if intelligent enough, of course).

Essentially, it boils down to Hiding/Stealth skills are still actions. WotC kept the idea of actions around from 4th edition, which makes sense in combat. They are not free actions. The rogue is blessed with Cunning Action to get be able to Hide as a bonus action (which makes me wonder if other classes need to take their Action just to hide?). If a rogue legitimately takes whatever action to hide, then he is hidden (based on his stealth skill) from whoever cannot see him (monsters perception).

...I just gave him the Cloak of Elvenkind.

 

[bganon]

(which makes me wonder if other classes need to take their Action just to hide?).

Yes! Hide is listed right in the "actions in combat" section of the PHB.

 

[Flamestrike]

Good points.

I am not at all going to touch or otherwise Nerf the rogue class. it should stand on its own, as is.

I will probably change a few monsters perception scores, or give them advantage especially, if in their lairs or other familiar territory.

The big thing that i got out of this is to make sure to account for all players actions (Standard, Move, Bonus if any).

I actually talked to my player who played the rogue this weekend. He completely understood that simply moving behind cover doesn't automatically equate to "hiding". It just means cover. Monsters don't need a perception check to find the rogue because in combat, its assumed that everyone is watching out for their lives, and they just saw the rogue take cover (if intelligent enough, of course).

Essentially, it boils down to Hiding/Stealth skills are still actions. WotC kept the idea of actions around from 4th edition, which makes sense in combat. They are not free actions. The rogue is blessed with Cunning Action to get be able to Hide as a bonus action (which makes me wonder if other classes need to take their Action just to hide?). If a rogue legitimately takes whatever action to hide, then he is hidden (based on his stealth skill) from whoever cannot see him (monsters perception).

...I just gave him the Cloak of Elvenkind.

Remember, the DM determines when a creature can hide. As the DM You're totally justified saying 'No, the creatures are aware of you now and you can't attempt the hide action, the creatures saw you going to your hiding spot'.

The rogue could have a stealth bonus of a million but if the creatures are aware of his presence and see him go into hiding he can't attempt the Hide action at all.

 

[TheEvilDM]

As soon as the hidden rogue attacks he is no longer hidden. Enemy creatures are now aware of his presence and generally speaking he cannot again attempt the hide action while those creatures are aware of his presence and keeping tabs on him.

Even if the rogue then moved behind pillar (While the enemy creatures were watching him) and obtained total cover relative to those creatures, generally speaking he cannot attempt the hide action. The enemy creatures saw him go into his hiding spot. He is not hidden. The preconditions for hiding are not met.

The DM is free to rule that the creatures were not watching the rogue and therefore he may hide in this circumstance. But the general rule is creatures in combat are alert to the presence of every unhidden creature and you can't attempt to hide from a creature that watches you go into hiding (For obvious reasons).

Remember the rules for hiding are clear. A rogue cannot for example crawl into a box in full view of the enemy, shut the lid and attempt the hide action. The rogue will have total cover relative to that creature, but he cannot even attempt to hide action. The creature was alert to his presence and saw the rogue going to hiding. This totally foils the hide action.

The point you're trying to make (emphasis mine), while considered by many DMs as a logical interpretation, is not actually RAW.

Only two limitations are given by the official rules on stealth: You must not be seen or heard by the creature from which you're trying to hide.

Whether or not that creature was able to see you immediately before you broke line of sight or how certain it is or isn't about your current position is not touched upon by the RAW.


So, while your interpretation is certainly a logical one, it's technically a houserule (or ruling, however you want to call it), and not one you can rely on with every DM and table.