D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[CapnZapp]

Remember, the DM determines when a creature can hide. As the DM You're totally justified saying 'No, the creatures are aware of you now and you can't attempt the hide action, the creatures saw you going to your hiding spot'.

The rogue could have a stealth bonus of a million but if the creatures are aware of his presence and see him go into hiding he can't attempt the Hide action at all.

Just be aware many players would view this DM as one totally shutting down one of their core features.

Meaning: no, this is definitely not that easy or clearcut.

(Not saying you're wrong. Just giving you a heads-up your take isn't uncontroversial, Flamestrike)

 

[Dausuul]

Im not making up anything. I'm pointing out your error.

You interpret the plain English phrase 'you cant attempt to hide from a creature that can see you' to mean 'you cant attempt [the Hide action] from a creature that can see you'.

Your interpretation is wrong.

Ah, so you've progressed from invoking "common sense" (usually a sign that you don't have a solid argument, so you just want to wave off any contrary viewpoint as nonsensical) to "Nuh-uh, you're just wrong."

My interpretation is perfectly valid. If you are unseen, you can hide. I don't care if you were seen at some point in the past; if you are not seen now--because you're invisible, or behind a pillar, or cast darkness, or teleported away, or whatever--you can hide.

If your concealment is a pillar, and you lean out from behind the pillar to attack, it is now the DM's call (per the bits about creatures paying attention in combat and the need to be seen "clearly") whether the enemy notices you lean out. If it does, you are seen and lose your hidden status before your attack, sacrificing any benefit. However, as long as you stay behind that pillar, you stay hidden.

 

[mellored]

Monsters can guess where the rogue is hidden. If they see him run behind a pillar, they can just walk around the pillar and look.

 

[iserith]

You lost me there, based on the examples you've been discussing.

If you enter a room with a rogue hidden behind a pillar, I think (hope?) we all agree that the rogue is hidden. But if you walk around the pillar such that the rogue is in plain sight? I wouldn't call for a Search check. Or the other example: if the rogue is Hiding under your bed, and you say "I look under the bed" I wouldn't call for a Search check.

I guess more likely if you enter a room with an invisible Rogue and say "I try to find whoever's in there" then maybe a Search check?

The thing to keep in mind here is that an action is not a check, nor a check an action.

You can take the Search action and not have to make a check, if the DM believes the outcome of the action has a certain result.

 

[fjw70]

That's because if you know where they are (and are objectively correct in that knowledge, as determined by the DM) they are not hidden from you.



They cant take the Hide action if you saw them go behind the pillar. You saw them go into hiding. The rule is not 'You cant [take the Hide action] when you are being watched;' the rule is 'you cant [attempt to hide] when someone is aware of you and is watching you'.

Youre parsing the Hide action as thing in and of itself. The RAW doesnt do this. Its just a plain english statement of common sense.

Look, come to my house and 'hide' from me in my bedroom while I watch you crawl into your hiding spot (your choice of under my bed, the closet or behind the bookcase). We can repeat this experiment as often as we want, but I assure you at no stage will you be hidden from me (despite having total cover relative to me).

After a dozen or so attempts, lets try it again, only this time, I wont be observing you (Ill close my eyes and turn up the stereo), and you can hide anywhere in the room you want.

Its not that you're doing anything different each time when you Hide, but when I watch you go into hiding it's impossible for you to do so. When I'm not observing you go into hiding, it suddenly becomes possible.



And if they did teleport away after moving behind the pillar, then I would allow the Hide action to be taken (the observer was not watching them go into hiding in this case).

Its a general rule. If you see someone going into a hiding spot, they cant hide from you there. They might have total cover relative to you, but they arent hidden (in game terms they simply cannot take the Hide action - relative to you - once there).



Mate, if you know where someone or something is, and are objectively correct in that knowledge, then (even though it may have total cover relative to you) it is not (objectively speaking) hidden from you.

Total cover, heavy obscurement and even invisibility does not = hidden.



Thats not a houserule. If a creature is hidden it can lean around the pillar and make an attack with the benefits of being hidden. After the attack is resolved (succesful or otherwise) the creature reveals itself and is no longer hidden (and generally cannot again become hidden as long as its being watched).

You walk into a room with a rogue hidden behind a pillar in the room. He pops up and shoots you gaining all the advantage of being hidden (advantage on the attack roll and sneak attack) and after this attack is resolved, he is no longer hidden.

From this point onwards the game assumes that you are now aware of him, and he cant generally attempt to hide again. Even if he ducks back behind the pillar, it doesnt matter (although he does gain total cover). You saw where he went, and (while he has total cover relative to you) barring some kind of extreme outlier (he teleports away behind the pillar behind you) he cant attempt the Hide action once behind the pillar again.



No they cant (barring having the Skulker feat or being a Wood elf). They need heavy obscurement to hide, not shadows, and in any event if I am watching them go into their hiding spot, they cant attempt the Hide action when there.

So you would say that if I go into an area of total darkness that had a diameter of 100' and you saw me go in that area then I would not be able to hide and you would know which space I am in at all times?

 

[ThePolarBear]

Just pointing out that to hide you just need to not be clearly seen by RAW. The pillar, assuming it gives enough cover, is a perfectly valid spot to hide.
Another thing: unless using facing rules, RAW assumes that in combat all are aware of what happens around. Sort of 360° sight. Weird, but still RAW. No " i sneak from behind" specifically unless the master says otherwise. So no, you are no longer hidden if you "pop out of cover" to make an attack - unless DM happens. Hiding is not a condition that remains until the end of the round. If you pop out, you are seen - Unless DM happens.

Last thing: Combat is a collection of abstract rules. If a monster comes behind your cover, you are no longer hidden, no matter what. It's not like you are going to retcon an attack since "being blinded actually happens at the same time of your previous attack so reroll with disadvantage thank you".

And yet, DM is the final judge, always.

 

[Flamestrike]

So you would say that if I go into an area of total darkness that had a diameter of 100' and you saw me go in that area then I would not be able to hide and you would know which space I am in at all times?

I'd probably make you wait a round (so you started your turn in the darkness) in most circumstances yeah. Standing in a 100' diameter area of total darkness is approaching the level of imprecision of location conferred by invisibility (which effectively places you in an infinite radius of 'heavy obscurement').

Remember, action is simultaneous despite the stop start nature of a cyclical turn based round structure. The Rogue I'm fighting hasn't suddenly broken off combat, turned and moved 30' into the shadows while I sit there and watch, then on my turn I follow him up with a similar move; the reality is that he turns and I immediately pursue, breathing down his neck and swinging my sword at him the whole time.

It'd be similar if a Rogue ran out of the room and around a bend in a corridor. After a round, if no-one followed him up, I'd allow him to attempt to Hide the following round.

I might also allow a Rogue to hide in the exact same spot from time to time, even after making an attack. In a particularly chaotic battle, its perfectly fine for a Rogue to pop out of hiding, fire his crossbow at an Ogre standing 60' away and engaged in a swirling melee with half a dozen warriors and duck back down and attempt to Hide again despite the general rule that once you attack you reveal yourself.

Its not a question of absolutes. Its a common sense ruling of 'does the creature you are trying to hide from know your position with sufficient precision'. Its ultimately a DM call, just using a bit of common sense and applying it to the situation.

 

[fjw70]

I'd probably make you wait a round (so you started your turn in the darkness) in most circumstances yeah. Standing in a 100' diameter area of total darkness is approaching the level of imprecision of location conferred by invisibility (which effectively places you in an infinite radius of 'heavy obscurement').

Remember, action is simultaneous despite the stop start nature of a cyclical turn based round structure. The Rogue I'm fighting hasn't suddenly broken off combat, turned and moved 30' into the shadows while I sit there and watch, then on my turn I follow him up with a similar move; the reality is that he turns and I immediately pursue, breathing down his neck and swinging my sword at him the whole time.

It'd be similar if a Rogue ran out of the room and around a bend in a corridor. After a round, if no-one followed him up, I'd allow him to attempt to Hide the following round.

I might also allow a Rogue to hide in the exact same spot from time to time, even after making an attack. In a particularly chaotic battle, its perfectly fine for a Rogue to pop out of hiding, fire his crossbow at an Ogre standing 60' away and engaged in a swirling melee with half a dozen warriors and duck back down and attempt to Hide again despite the general rule that once you attack you reveal yourself.

Its not a question of absolutes. Its a common sense ruling of 'does the creature you are trying to hide from know your position with sufficient precision'. Its ultimately a DM call, just using a bit of common sense and applying it to the situation.

LOL not rules as written but hey it's your game. You already houserule staying hidden by leaning around a pillar so might as well house rule the whole thing.

 

[Flamestrike]

LOL not rules as written but hey it's your game. You already houserule staying hidden by leaning around a pillar so might as well house rule the whole thing.

It's not a house rule bro. Read the rules.

A hidden creature can pop up from its hiding spot and make an attack from hiding (with advantage). After the attack is resolved (hit or miss) the attacker is revealed.

If the attacker has the skulker feat it's only revealed on a hit.

Read the rules or start a poll or something. You're 100 percent wrong here.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

The basic covenant of D&D is the rules. Both the DM and the players have agreed when they sit down at the table that they are indeed playing a game of D&D 5e. So unless it's stated right up front that you will be nerfing rogues, I would say deal with it. Players need to deal with special abilities your monsters present to them. It's no different for you to deal with the rogue's ability as well.

If a hiding rogue has attacked and then re-hidden it doesn't mean that their enemy doesn't have an idea of where they are. They just can't specifically target them until they negate the Hidden condition. So run someone around the cover the rogue is using, or light up that area or something. Hiding has preconditions, so negate them as well as you can.

In the military there are specific tactics for dealing with snipers (ie, hiding ranged rogues). In general one group provides suppressive fire on the area they suspect the sniper is in (in D&D terms AoE spells and held-action ranged attacks) while another group flanks the sniper to cut off their escape and eliminate them.