Dm:ing a paladin?

[Hand of Evil]

Never thought about it but the boy scout law is a pretty chivalrous code;
As Paladin (Scout) is
Trust Worthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind
Obedient
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean, and,
Reverent.

Ofc depending on the paladin you could probably cut out a few of these things and add some others (no one ever said paladins had to be cheeful or clean). Also there's always the problem of interpreting what each of these mean. And killing orc babies is still open to debate.

What makes the boy scout code interesting is that it is two parts the 1st is the Oath (or promise) with the line obey the Scout Law:
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

The scout law is where everything is defined and as such could be changed as a role-playing element:
TRUSTWORTHY
A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.
LOYAL
A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation.
HELPFUL
A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward.
FRIENDLY
A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.
COURTEOUS
A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.
KIND
A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason.
OBEDIENT
A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.
CHEERFUL
A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.
THRIFTY
A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.
BRAVE
A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him.
CLEAN
A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.
REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

[Hussar]

My all time favourite answer to Paladins comes from the Farland campaign.

Check it out here

Really spelled things out for me and makes my life as a paladin and DM of paladins MUCH simpler.

 

[StupidSmurf]

Paladins are my favorite class both to play and to adjudicate. Here's the rules I follow:

1. Paladins don't only destroy evil, they promote good.
A few gold pieces for the poor, laying on hands to Cure Disease on a sick beggar in an alleyway, sharing a meal with a hungry family, a few words of encouragement to a saddened youngster. These are just as important for a paladin as slaying the demon, defeating the dragon, and overthrowing the vampire tyrant.

2. Sword-swinging robotic fundies are not paladins.
Having someone running around, swinging his sword like the crazed Sir Lancelot from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and yelling "Repent!" is NOT the way to play a Paladin.

3. It's Lawful Good, not Lawful Stupid.
A first level paladin is not expected to just blindly charge that gargantuan Great Wyrm red dragon. Goodness without wisdom is just well-intentioned idiocy that doesn't promote the cause of good one iota.

4. Paladins are examples, not laughing stocks or butts of jokes.
A paladin is noble, self-sacrificing, putting the needs of others before his or her own. The paladin promotes fair play, common sense, honesty, and reliability. Paladins are noble, but also humble. A paladin should be able to have a sense of humor, but also know when to be serious. Their nobility and manners come not from thinking that they are superior to others, but rather humbly considering others to be just as important of themselves, and deserving of simple respect.

5. At the risk of getting a little religious here:
There's a verse in the Bible that says "Be as gentle as doves, but as wise as serpents." Consider the implications of that.

6. Not all paladins are teetotaler-virgins.
Although it depends on how much importance the paladin's religion places on drinking and/or fooling around, not every paladin orders milk at a tavern, or considers the opposite sex "icky."

7. Fair play has its limits.
Paladins can certainly initiate combat, or initiate a retreat. Informing the red dragon of the party's presence before attacking is just plain foolish.

Hope this helps.

 

[J-Buzz]

My all time favourite answer to Paladins comes from the Farland campaign.

Check it out here

Really spelled things out for me and makes my life as a paladin and DM of paladins MUCH simpler.

That is a very good code of conduct. Thanks for pointing it out. That is basically how I run my paladin but it is cool to have somthing in writing.

 

[Asmo]

Man,I´m so impressed with all the wisdom and great advice! It´s no wonder I love EnWorld so much!
Would it be a good idea to let the paladin player into this thread and take part of all the goodness?

Asmo

 

[Hand of Evil]

Man,I´m so impressed with all the wisdom and great advice! It´s no wonder I love EnWorld so much!
Would it be a good idea to let the paladin player into this thread and take part of all the goodness?

Asmo

yes it is enlightment both for DM and player.

 

[moritheil]

Paladins are my favorite class both to play and to adjudicate. Here's the rules I follow:

5. At the risk of getting a little religious here:
There's a verse in the Bible that says "Be as gentle as doves, but as wise as serpents." Consider the implications of that.

Hope this helps.

I agree with most of what you posted, but I wonder about the bizarre idea that everyone has that paladins are exemplars of kindness and mercy. In DnD, many LG patrons of paladins have precepts that are not identical to those of real-life religions. As such, the idea of tempering justice with mercy is absolutely foreign to the bulk of paladins. While the paladin archetype was predicated on the ideal of the noble, chivalrous knight, it's a very good idea to lay out exactly how much of that nobility and chivalry you as a DM expect, or the player might be in for a rude awakening.

As I read the paladin class, a paladin who slays evil all day long is no less a shining example of LG than a paladin who seeks to defeat evil by turning it to good. As such, the answer to the often-raised "orc baby dilemma" is that if they detect as evil, and the paladin slays them, he is fulfilling his duty to destroy evil. For that matter, if a human child detected as evil, and the paladin slew it, he would not be in any trouble with his patron (local officials would strenuously object.) I do not pretend that this is the only stance to take, but I include it here to show how the expected conduct and resolution of dilemmas comes directly from a specific fundamental understanding of what a paladin is. If you say "the fundamental purpose of a paladin is to expunge evil from existence," then many of the classical dilemmas, which result from an imprecise concept of what "good" is, are easily resolved.

Of course, if you get into exalted paladins with vows of nonviolence and the kind, things change. If you play FR and your patron is Ilmater, who does not advocate dealing out swift violence, or Lathander, who advocates new beginnings for all things, and only really likes his followers to smite undead, things change. You have a slightly different fundamental purpose, and your resolution of dilemmas could shift accordingly.

 

[Ozmar]

You as DM must already know the correct answers to moral questions that will likely come up in your game. Morality in a fantasy world is usually absolute, as the DM you have to decide, the others are not running the game.

How evil does a creature need to be before a paladin need not consider it's [likely hollow]pleas for mercy.

what do you do with the non combatents?

Are souls more important than lives, how much so?

etc....

Then i recommend having an in game way for the paladin to draw on to make those sticky moral choices.

I recommend using knowledge: Religion. So the paladin can compare "What Would Heronius Do", compared to "What Bahamut Would Do", compared to "What Would Orcus Do"

Good call, Frank. As DM, I've never had trouble with paladins in my game. I know (i.e., decide) what the "correct" moral choice is, and let the players decide for themselves how their character will choose. Only on rare occasions have I had paladins fail to uphold their calling, and on those occasions, a divine reminder through a dream set them back on the path through a simple act of pennitence.

Ozmar the Righteous DM

Edit: Definitely don't let the other PCs dictate how the paladin will act. That's between the paladin and his gods (as played by the DM). If the other players groan and suggest that the paladin is about to lose his way, just smile and keep it to yourself. There is no reason the paladin's ethical code has to be subjected to group consensus.

 

[Ozmar]

Orc Babies

I don´t know the answer to this question, even if it´s a classic. I just can´t make up my mind. Atleast there´s no orc babies in Mad God´s Key

Asmo

That depends on whether orcs are inherently or irredeemably evil or not, which is something the DM should decide in the absolute sense for his game, but which the player's characters may (or may not) know absolutely, but about which they may have strong beliefs.

In fact, I'm playing a paladin now... methinks I need to ask my DM what my character should believe about that very subject, since I just slaughtered a bunch of goblins (admittedly they were not kids and it was in combat, so I think I'm in the clear...)

Ozmar the Paladin

 

[frankthedm]

My orcs [ orcs & hobgoblins ] put thier kids on the front line as soon as the little runts can use a weapon [goblin stats]. Makes for great amusment for all involved.