Dm:ing a paladin?

[StupidSmurf]

I agree with most of what you posted, but I wonder about the bizarre idea that everyone has that paladins are exemplars of kindness and mercy. In DnD, many LG patrons of paladins have precepts that are not identical to those of real-life religions. As such, the idea of tempering justice with mercy is absolutely foreign to the bulk of paladins. While the paladin archetype was predicated on the ideal of the noble, chivalrous knight, it's a very good idea to lay out exactly how much of that nobility and chivalry you as a DM expect, or the player might be in for a rude awakening.

As I read the paladin class, a paladin who slays evil all day long is no less a shining example of LG than a paladin who seeks to defeat evil by turning it to good. As such, the answer to the often-raised "orc baby dilemma" is that if they detect as evil, and the paladin slays them, he is fulfilling his duty to destroy evil. For that matter, if a human child detected as evil, and the paladin slew it, he would not be in any trouble with his patron (local officials would strenuously object.) I do not pretend that this is the only stance to take, but I include it here to show how the expected conduct and resolution of dilemmas comes directly from a specific fundamental understanding of what a paladin is. If you say "the fundamental purpose of a paladin is to expunge evil from existence," then many of the classical dilemmas, which result from an imprecise concept of what "good" is, are easily resolved.

Of course, if you get into exalted paladins with vows of nonviolence and the kind, things change. If you play FR and your patron is Ilmater, who does not advocate dealing out swift violence, or Lathander, who advocates new beginnings for all things, and only really likes his followers to smite undead, things change. You have a slightly different fundamental purpose, and your resolution of dilemmas could shift accordingly.

Good response! Well, mercy and kindness are "good" qualities, and if a paladin embraces all that is good, then mercy and kindness can, mind you, CAN be a part of his/her repertoire. It can also be a matter of degrees. Maybe all paladins favor the idea of healing the sick and feeding the poor, but for some, it may be less of a priority, or there's less interest in going out of his/her way to accomplish it.

I once read a nifty little anecdote about the difference between justice and mercy. A murderer was caught, jailed, and tried. His guilt was iron-clad. At the end of the trial, the judge passed sentence: "Death!". The murderer responded "Please! Spare my life! I want justice!" To which the judge replied, "Justice you've been given. What you're really asking for is mercy."

With justice, you get what's coming to you as dictated by the law. With mercy, you are spared something unpleasant regardless of whether you actually deserve/earned it or not. But again, "mercy" is not something limited to a combat situation. The word has also been used in the context of "Help me, even though you have no obligation or need to do so!"

And as it happens, I run a Forgotten Realms campaign so I understand precisely what you're talking about. But let's take Tyr, for example. OK, big god type...heavy-duty justice being, the whole "Though shalt not get away with it" mentality. Great. However, read his description in Faiths and Pantheons, and you see he has a tender side. Now, much in the same way as clerics choose which domains of their patron god they wish to emphasize, it could be argued that a paladin could choose to emulate a certain aspect of his god over others.

For instance, let's take Ilmater. Member of the Triad. Buddy of Tyr. Lawful Good god of suffering, and not prone to violent behavior. You could have an Ilmarian paladin that spends several hours a day walking the streets of the worst section of town, healing lepers, dressing wounds, giving out alms to the poor. Maybe he even volunteers at the local house of healing and does everything from tend to wounds to emptying chamberpots or folding bandages. But, and the description of Ilmater backs this up, that same Paladin could see some nasty evil warrior bullying some poor defenseless types, and so the holy warrior goes over and "kicks arse for the Lord", if you get my meaning.

Man, I love discussions like this

 

[Voadam]

1 Read over the paladin entry in the SRD/PH. Pay special attention to things that cause loss of paladin powers.

These include GROSS violations of the code and evil actions. Think through what constitutes an EVIL action for you. Is it just torture and random murder? Is it anything not good?

Think about if you are going to go more restrictive for paladins as many DMs do. If so then tell the player beforehand and let him know the new conditions and your expectations. Some players groove on this type of roleplaying restrictions with mechanical consequences, others loathe it. Don't blindside your players with these things.

 

[Asmo]

One type of paladin (even if he´s not a paladin per se ) is Mandorallen from David Eddings work: a loyal, absolute friend that loves all good and don´t fear to meet evil eye to eye. He´s a little bit rigid sometimes,but he will never falter. Perhaps he´s a bit on the stereotypical side, but I can´t help liking the guy. I wont mind if my paladin player choose him as role model.

Another paladin-like type is C.S Friedmans Damien Kilcanon Vryce, a warrior priest filled with angst and often confronted with impossible choices: a man of flesh and blood that tries the hardest he can to obey his god without failing to much. This is not a bad choice either, very realistic but probably to hard to play this kind of troubled personality.

A passus from "True Night Falls" embodies Damiens life and work:

"He walked quietly to the head of the aisle, listening to his footsteps resound in emptiness.
Faith curled about him like an evening mist, centuries upon centuries of unquestioning devotion that had left their mark upon the floor he trod, the altar before him,the very air he breathed.
Earth-fae: utterly tamed, utterly tractable. He had dreamed of it without understanding. Now he knew. Now he understood. He put out his hand, knowing that it curled about his living warmth like a flame. No need to See it;faith was enough.
Silently he knelt on the plush velvet carpet,his white robe gathered beneath his knees.
In his eyes the afterimage of the fireworks still burned,sparks that shimmered and died in the shadow of Mercia´s great altar.
Trembling, he bowed his head. And tried to voice a prayer so deeply embedded in his soul that for a moment no words would come. For a moment he did no more than pour his hope, his joy his love of the Church into the bondless reservoir of faith that surrounded him.
And then the words came.
"Thank You, Lord, for giving me this day. This joy. Thank You for letting me taste that beauty of the human spirit which is the core of our faith. Thank You for giving me even one moment in which human greed, uncertainty, and aggression receded from concern, and the Dream that is our faith stood revealed before me in all its terrible splendor.
Help me to hold on to that moment within my heart forever, a source of strength in times of trial, a source of faith in times of questioning. Help me to be a vehicle through which others may glimpse what I have seen, and a tool by which the future may be fashioned in its image. In Your most holy Name, Lord God of Earth and Erna. Always and forever in Your name."
There were tears on his face, running down his cheeks. He left them alone. They, too, were a kind of prayer, too precious to disturb: a psalm of pure emotion."

Asmo

 

[Asmo]

My all time favourite answer to Paladins comes from the Farland campaign.

Check it out here

Really spelled things out for me and makes my life as a paladin and DM of paladins MUCH simpler.

No doubt about what to do with orc-babies in that game

"You need to dispatch them if they do not immediately surrender and throw down their weapons. Show them no mercy, for they are foot soldiers of the enemy in our cosmic war. Pay no heed to their gender or age either."
( Got a nice ring to it, I admit that )

Asmo

 

[Plane Sailing]

Ensure that things are fun for the Paladin. Whatever you do, don't club him over the head with moral quandaries all the time or belabour him with the 'paladin code'. It is a class with a bunch of interesting powers and spells and some nice roles, like all the other classes in the PHB. Don't sweat it, just have fun.

 

[IcyCool]

My all time favourite answer to Paladins comes from the Farland campaign.

Check it out here

Really spelled things out for me and makes my life as a paladin and DM of paladins MUCH simpler.

I've only one problem with that reading. According to that, if a Paladin were to meet, say, a Demonic merchant (who is currently doing nothing evil, just selling his wares in the marketplace), the Paladin is to draw steel and slay him immediately. This will likely get the Paladin arrested and executed. How does the Farland campaign reconcile this?

 

[Asmo]

I've only one problem with that reading. According to that, if a Paladin were to meet, say, a Demonic merchant (who is currently doing nothing evil, just selling his wares in the marketplace), the Paladin is to draw steel and slay him immediately. This will likely get the Paladin arrested and executed. How does the Farland campaign reconcile this?

Never, ever, allow marketplaces with demonic merchants?

On a more serious note, I would be interested to get an answer on this question.

 

[moritheil]

Never, ever, allow marketplaces with demonic merchants?

On a more serious note, I would be interested to get an answer on this question.

To use

Die for the cause, by my reading.

Your inability to understand the mindset most likely comes from the assertion that the "demonic merchant isn't doing anything evil, just selling things." By the mindset, his very existence as a demon IS actively evil. The paladin would be called upon to slay him, and would probably give an impassioned speech about evil if caught and brought to trial. He would tell the people that they cannot wait until evil is ready to strike, for then it would be too late.

 

[devilbat]

My all time favourite answer to Paladins comes from the Farland campaign.

Check it out here

Thanks for that. I just forwarded it on to my resident Paladin player.

 

[IcyCool]

Die for the cause, by my reading.

Your inability to understand the mindset most likely comes from the assertion that the "demonic merchant isn't doing anything evil, just selling things." By the mindset, his very existence as a demon IS actively evil. The paladin would be called upon to slay him, and would probably give an impassioned speech about evil if caught and brought to trial. He would tell the people that they cannot wait until evil is ready to strike, for then it would be too late.

Well now, let's say that the demonic merchant is operating under a "legitimate, goodness-sanctioned authority", where it is illegal to simply slay someone on the street (no matter who they are). Undoubtedly, the merchant will be up to no good, but according to the code you must both respect "legitimate, goodness-sanctioned authority" and slay evil on the spot.

So what's a Paladin to do?