• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

DM Issues: Railroading

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
So anything the DM initiates that will negatively impact the PCs is a railroad? really? I'm not even sure what to say to that.

DM: the dragon is attacking the town your staying in! what do you do?

Player: Oh my god! A dragon? How can you do that, my character might die - I'm being railroaded into action - can't I just sit here and drink my ale?

Or let's pull that back.

DM: the dragon breathes on the wagon - you can save the gold (enough to set you up for life) or the peasant - which is it?

Doing either has negative consequences for the player (staying poor vs. passively letting someone die) it's mean but it's not railroading.

Can they join the dragon armies? Can they move continents? Do they have multiple options ind dealing with the invading armies (rally the nobles, rally the peasants, confront the threat directly, sneak behind enemy lines etc.) If the players have choices and options, if the end result is not set - it's not railroading.

How they deal with the threat is a choice, or if the PCs have the option of ignoring the threat -that is a choice. If the PCs have meaningful options and meaningful choices - it's not a railroad. If the DM has set up a world shattering event, as long as the PCs have meaningful options it's not a railroad. If the players are just simply not enthused with the "world shattering event" and dislike the whole concept - well they need to talk to the DM.

Are we back to negative impact/consequence = railroading? Sometimes the player making a choice that negatively impacts their character is the most fun/rewarding choice for the player! Not all choices should be reward or bigger reward, sometimes character growth is initiated by choices that the player knows are suboptimal but feels it's the choice the character would make.

This is a great post. I'd XP you if I could. This is really what it's breaking down to. Again, I feel the term "railroading" is being grossly overused, here. Railroading, basically, means ending with the GMs desired outcome, no matter the actions that take place. That's being confused with being heavy-handed (which I'm also against).

You can be heavy-handed without railroading people (an army is sweeping across the land; you must fight, lead men, switch sides, sneak around, leave the continent, etc. This is heavy-handed, as you're forcing people to deal with a problem. Sometimes the setting evolves in such a way naturally that this can occur, even on a mini-scale: if you're being accosted by bandits, then you must deal with the problem, whether you fight, hand over your goods, or run.).

You can also railroad people (an army is sweeping across the land; no matter what the PCs do, they'll fall into service of the head general against this army, and they'll complete mission X, Y, and Z. Afterwards, they'll have an epic battle against the opposing general, where they'll break the enemy lines if they win).

Those are two very different and distinct things, and I think that it would be a lot clearer if they weren't used interchangeably.

Just my two cents. As always, play what you like :)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Nagol

Unimportant
This may be true as far as it goes, but doesn't really address Starfox's point. Because the question then becomes, How is that situation decided upon? If the GM decides on the situation regardless of the players deciding to play the GDS trio - and would have used exactly the same situation if the players had build a Sorcerer Supreme, a Goliath Brawler and a Valkyrie - then is the GM still running a game? Or just authoring his/her own story? The answer to this seems to me to depend crucially on the preferences and expectations of the players. But there is no default presumption that what this GM is doing is the proper way to run an RPG.

In my case the starting situation would remain exactly the same. The unfolding narrative is likely to be highly different depending on the areas the PCs engage, their choices, and the relationships explored. I do not author the game. I present the starting context and let the players choices guide the narrative.

I have experience that the player choices strongly affect the way the narrative and situation unfolds. Several times, I've been asked to run a 2nd or 3rd simultaneous campaign with a different group. In order to cut down on my workload, I start the new group in the original situation with the same starting parameters. Typically, by the third session, the circumstances have changed enough that I no longer have a reduced workload. The situations evolve away from each other quite quickly from the differences in PC choice and success.

Another great post! Key to Starfox's hypothetical scenario is that the GM has persisted with his/her own conception of the gameworld regardless of the fact that for whatever reason, the players are unmoved by the bits the GM is very excited by. If the players end up being upset by this, when the GM brings to an end the game that the players have been enjoying, the GM should hardly be surprised!

Whereas I would never run a game like that - I constantly rework the backstory to my campaign world in light of the unfolding interests of the players revealed in the course of play, in order to better support situations that build on those interests and allow the players to keep driving the game forward in the way they want to.

I constantly rework the forestory and the current situation by adding previously undefined elements. Once an element is in play, its nature remains constant. As an example, from a much earlier discussion; under my scheme if a PCs long-lost mother is known to be in an orcish camp for sacrifice and the PCs leave without interrupting the ritual then the mother is sacrificed. The backstory is not modified because I think the player may want to further engage the NPC in a thematic way. I let the players choose what interests them from the milieu. Perhaps the players wants the angst of knowing he failed to save her? Perhaps the player originally had her long-lost because he doesn't want to interact with the mother at all? Allowing the players to author the story by respecting their choices -- both good and bad -- is a form of empowerment.

As a player my interests are ecletic and best known by me not the DM. I'll engage those things that catch my fancy and drop them again just as quickly if they don't keep my interest. Having someone rebuild to feed my apparent interest would be disconcerting and likely frustrating for the other person.

As Starfox says, a GM must be prepared to take responsibility for his/her own world design decisions. If you know that your players want to explore a world in which you already have a default timeline worked out, and in which your choices for what will be significant in the setting (like the end-of-the-world plot) are settled prior to play, then go for it - take responsibility! But a lot of players don't want to play that way, don't want to explore the GM's world but rather want to play their PCs in the setting as they conceive of it (and as their conception of it evolves over the course of play) - and there is nothing defective about their preferences in this respect.

Of course, I take responsibility for my designs and game play. I am upfront with the prospective players about my style, the starting situation, and base expectation for the game. I despise bait-and-switch gaems where the character is designed under one premise and rapidly thrust into a different one without player choice because it is deceptive on the part of the DM regarding design and game play.

I insist the players take responsibility for their designs and game play too. The unfolding narrative is constructed out their actions and consequences. The PCs do not instigate all actions; they may not appreciate all developments; but the PCs can affect any outcome. If a player doesn't want this form of play, as a DM I hope he takes the responsible route and finds a game more to his taste.
 
Last edited:

S'mon

Legend
L
I agree with this too. As a GM, you can't avoid railroading just by punting it all to the setting and saying "it's the setting's fault"! As Doug points out, different setting configuration support different sorts of player freedom - or, perhaps none at all, which is my problem with Dragonlance - the players have neither exploratory freedom (Draconian armies will cut them off), nor thematic freedom (the answers to the thematic issues are already prepackaged into the scenario) nor even tactical freedom (because the adventure encourages fudging to produce predetermined outcomes to action resolution).

This. THIS IS RAILROAD! :D Dragonlance is a Railroad because as you point out it does not support player freedom in any significant dimension, the players are essentially just along for the ride. Where there is significant player freedom in any of the dimensions you have identified, it is not a railroad.

Example: I'm playing Great Britain in Axis & Allies. I only have one kind of freedom - to direct my forces in the struggle with the Axis powers. That's a very limited freedom, but enough that the game is not a railroad. Snakes & Ladders or Ludo, by contrast...
 

S'mon

Legend
Honestly, I just think your splitting hairs.

You're wrong, though. :p

99 times in 100 the players will go do the obvious thing. But as a player the feeling that we the PC group are free to go do something else if we really want to is vital to my enjoyment of the game. Likewise as DM, it's important to me that if the PCs want to attack the quest-giver NPC and loot his house because they think he's not paying them enough, then fine, they can do that, and natural consequences follow. Often the players will have more fun as wanted outlaws anyway.

Edit: Or the time the DM expected our 1st level 3e PCs to assault an Ogre castle. We took one look at the ogres on the battlements, said "No way Jose!" and turned right round. The DM was surprised, but didn't try to railroad us into attacking the castle anyway.
 

Honestly, I just think your splitting hairs. As Janx has pointed out, once the credible threat to the PC's is on the table, they are most likely going to deal with it.

Sure, there might be the outliers where they ignore it, but, the vast majority of the time, they're going to jump right on board.

Disproportionate choices will result in a single response far more often than not. I'm not seeing a huge difference here.

For me the difference is, the players don't have the option of ignoring the hook in a railroad. One way or another the GM is going to hook them. And as the game progresses, in a railroad it isn't just a matter of what threat they choose to engage, but how they engage it. If I complain about railroading as a player it means not only has the GM presented a scenario that we basically have to go for, but within that scenario we really don't have many choices beyond battlefield tactics (we will meet NPC so and so, who reveals the secret of such and such, only to betray us at the last minute, etc).

In the example given, the players can chose not to bite if the GM isn't railroading, and he will go with it. Just because the GM presents an option the PCs are likely to choose, I don't really see that as railroading. Especially if it is a set up where they could choose a number of different approaches (side with the invaders, attack the invaders, act as middle-men negotiators, profit from the ensuing war, etc).

I also tend to think of railroading as a tool, more than anything else. I have no problem with the GM railroading the set-up a little bit. I understand the GM only has so much time to prepare. But when he railroads throughout the adventure, this bothers me a little more.
 

S'mon

Legend
Well, if I get into such a game I know what I've got into, don't I? - even if my naive PC is surprised by the outbreak of war. The question is whether a player is obliged to enjoy the GM springing a war scenario - or whatever else - on the players regardless of the players' preferences for play as revealed through the PCs they have built and been playing.

I would just say that the GM should make sure the players know in advance the type of campaign he'll be running - avoid bait & switch is a very good general rule. If the GM tells the players about the looming shadows of disaster, and that their PCs will have the opportunity to confront it, and the players create PCs who won't confront it, I don't see it as bad DMing if the disaster still occurs. For one thing, the players may *want* to experience being swept up in disaster. If the players actually wanted a no-disaster game, they should have told the GM that up front and he could run a different game or get different players.
 

The way I get around railroading as a GM, is to focus more on NPCs and powergroups than on scenarios and events. So as the campaign evolves it really becomes more about the PCs engaging different characters or organizations, and everyone reacting according to their interests and motives.
 

S'mon

Legend
As Starfox says, a GM must be prepared to take responsibility for his/her own world design decisions. If you know that your players want to explore a world in which you already have a default timeline worked out, and in which your choices for what will be significant in the setting (like the end-of-the-world plot) are settled prior to play, then go for it - take responsibility! But a lot of players don't want to play that way, don't want to explore the GM's world but rather want to play their PCs in the setting as they conceive of it (and as their conception of it evolves over the course of play) - and there is nothing defective about their preferences in this respect.

It's defective if they didn't tell the GM what they wanted, and let him run his timeline-to-disaster game for 3 months before telling him: "Uh, no Great War please, we much prefer the setting without it".
 

DM: "On your journey between towns, on a wilderness road, with no one around, you find a huge pile of gold."

Is this a railroad because 99 out of 100 times players will take it (after being suitably paranoid about it being trapped/cursed/bait/etc)?



As far as the whole negative versus positive argument, I strongly disagree that it matters if the consequences are good or bad. In the above example, the bad consequence is not taking it. The good consequence is taking it. Failing to reap rewards is a negative consequence, it is a matter of perception that tells us otherwise.
 

DM: "On your journey between towns, on a wilderness road, with no one around, you find a huge pile of gold."

Is this a railroad because 99 out of 100 times players will take it (after being suitably paranoid about it being trapped/cursed/bait/etc)?



As far as the whole negative versus positive argument, I strongly disagree that it matters if the consequences are good or bad. In the above example, the bad consequence is not taking it. The good consequence is taking it. Failing to reap rewards is a negative consequence, it is a matter of perception that tells us otherwise.


I think placing something in a specific location isn't railroading. If the gold always appeared on the road no matter what direction the PCs went, that would be railroading. Also if the gold was on a specific road, but the players had no choice but to go there, that would be railroading.

Also this isn't a typical scenario, and it is pretty simple and straight forward (there is a pile of gold on the road). The more complex the situation, the more choices the PCs have. If there is a pile of gold on the road and there are two brothers fighting over ownership of the gold, now you have something the players can interact with in a number of ways. They can ignore the brothers, mediate the dispute or take sides. If they take sides, perhaps there are two very different outcomes (possibly good, possibly bad).
 

Remove ads

Top