Tom Cashel
First Post
The best way to deal with a rules lawyer is to stomp on his body until his guts squirt out both ends.
DM Needs Help with Rules Lawyer
- Thread starter cptg1481
- Start date
cptg1481
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Thanks
Your comment is speculation at best....not knowing the cirsumstances....
Grilling a DM is like in this excahnge, the one that inspired the post....
Player: I attack the guy on the horse....(we resolve the action)
DM: the IMP who is invisible (not yet seen) was holding an action to attack you if you attacked his master.
Player: What IMP?
DM: the one that's invisible behind you....
Player: What...no way I have blindsight via my class...
DM: OH, ok well then I guess you knew he was there then, sorry dude, can't remember everything all the time. So you don't want to attack the guy on the horse....or what?
Player: Well no of course not if there is an invisible IMP behind me.
DM: OK then that attack (Already resolved)didn't happen then. Do over....
Player: I attack the IMP, (he hits wanting to flank it even though the player in flank position has no way of knowing the thing is there) . (we argue, I decide it's not worth the fight, fine I say)
I do 25 HP's of damage he's gone....
DM: No,...he not he's still up
Player: What...what kind of IMP is they only have like 13 HPS (players proceeds to pull out MM)
DM: (wanting to end all debate...once again sacrificing mystery and it's attendant fun to end an argument) Well he's someones familiar and that someone has 135 HP so the IMP has half of that.
At this point he proceeds to attack it several times until it falls at which point he say's I coup de gras it. I roll (I always roll in the open for all to see, I don't fudge for the PC's or against them, I just don;t like it, seems cheap) poorly for the IMP but he fights anyway knowing he can't really die as the player is doing subdual damage)
The BBEG is heckleling him the whole time (knowing that he can't actually kill the IMP) as they are surrounded by his rather large army of undead. The whole time the BBEG is attempting to make a deal with a couple of PC's (who are receptive) the one though is hell bent on killing his familiar for some reason. I want to just have the army swarm him, and have the BBEG kill him but after the argueing I feel this will seem or appear vindictive so decide against it....we go on from here.
So I tell him fine...it appears dead...
Player: What, he is dead I gloat over killing the IMP to the BBEG.
DM: (As BBEG) He'll be fine do you want a deal or not.
Player: wait a minute the IMP's dead he's at -35 HP or something like it. He at least has to save versus the damage I dealt on the coup de gras.
DM: Look hes got regeneration...
Player: (cutting me off, pulling out the PHB and reading the coup de gras section) BLAH, BLAH BLAH.
DM: It doesn't matter you are only doing subdual dammage..
Player: (cutting me off again, to look up what kind of weapons he is susseptable to) It doesn't matter on a coup de gras he's gonna die.
DM: Look just trust me on this one he's fine let's just keep going here.
After the session I actually have to pull out the SRD and prove that characters with the regen ability don't die on a coup de gras attack.
This is not clarification, or looking for the same set of rules....all of our combats have tended to degenerate to this in some fassion or another. It gets old having to prove yourself over and over again to the same player.
I think I've bent over backwards to be overly accomodating and fair to the player in question...I don't like rule zero...never have never will, but then again I have never had a player like this....it is gettin old. I'm gonna start using it if our combats keep going in this direction.
And yes we've had the OOG conversation and all about waiting till the end, which tends to be ok if my immediate decision is in his favor, however, if the decision's outcome is remotely bad for the character the argument tends to continue until he gets his way or I give up.
I'm giving him two more sessions to chill, then its the road home for him....
BVB said:
Your comment is speculation at best....not knowing the cirsumstances....
Grilling a DM is like in this excahnge, the one that inspired the post....
Player: I attack the guy on the horse....(we resolve the action)
DM: the IMP who is invisible (not yet seen) was holding an action to attack you if you attacked his master.
Player: What IMP?
DM: the one that's invisible behind you....
Player: What...no way I have blindsight via my class...
DM: OH, ok well then I guess you knew he was there then, sorry dude, can't remember everything all the time. So you don't want to attack the guy on the horse....or what?
Player: Well no of course not if there is an invisible IMP behind me.
DM: OK then that attack (Already resolved)didn't happen then. Do over....
Player: I attack the IMP, (he hits wanting to flank it even though the player in flank position has no way of knowing the thing is there) . (we argue, I decide it's not worth the fight, fine I say)
I do 25 HP's of damage he's gone....
DM: No,...he not he's still up
Player: What...what kind of IMP is they only have like 13 HPS (players proceeds to pull out MM)
DM: (wanting to end all debate...once again sacrificing mystery and it's attendant fun to end an argument) Well he's someones familiar and that someone has 135 HP so the IMP has half of that.
At this point he proceeds to attack it several times until it falls at which point he say's I coup de gras it. I roll (I always roll in the open for all to see, I don't fudge for the PC's or against them, I just don;t like it, seems cheap) poorly for the IMP but he fights anyway knowing he can't really die as the player is doing subdual damage)
The BBEG is heckleling him the whole time (knowing that he can't actually kill the IMP) as they are surrounded by his rather large army of undead. The whole time the BBEG is attempting to make a deal with a couple of PC's (who are receptive) the one though is hell bent on killing his familiar for some reason. I want to just have the army swarm him, and have the BBEG kill him but after the argueing I feel this will seem or appear vindictive so decide against it....we go on from here.
So I tell him fine...it appears dead...
Player: What, he is dead I gloat over killing the IMP to the BBEG.
DM: (As BBEG) He'll be fine do you want a deal or not.
Player: wait a minute the IMP's dead he's at -35 HP or something like it. He at least has to save versus the damage I dealt on the coup de gras.
DM: Look hes got regeneration...
Player: (cutting me off, pulling out the PHB and reading the coup de gras section) BLAH, BLAH BLAH.
DM: It doesn't matter you are only doing subdual dammage..
Player: (cutting me off again, to look up what kind of weapons he is susseptable to) It doesn't matter on a coup de gras he's gonna die.
DM: Look just trust me on this one he's fine let's just keep going here.
After the session I actually have to pull out the SRD and prove that characters with the regen ability don't die on a coup de gras attack.
This is not clarification, or looking for the same set of rules....all of our combats have tended to degenerate to this in some fassion or another. It gets old having to prove yourself over and over again to the same player.
I think I've bent over backwards to be overly accomodating and fair to the player in question...I don't like rule zero...never have never will, but then again I have never had a player like this....it is gettin old. I'm gonna start using it if our combats keep going in this direction.
And yes we've had the OOG conversation and all about waiting till the end, which tends to be ok if my immediate decision is in his favor, however, if the decision's outcome is remotely bad for the character the argument tends to continue until he gets his way or I give up.
I'm giving him two more sessions to chill, then its the road home for him....
Last edited:
Very Good Rule #1: Players are allowed to open only the PHB at the table. Other books may be opened with permission. (This doesn't have to be a hard and fast rule, but rather a courtesy to the DM. Ask them not to do so, and they likely will comply.)
Better Answer: Not every monster is the same; please put the MM away.
And why would the BBEG want to keep this jerk around? If he's been a booger about the imp, have him reap the rewards of his actions.
If every encounter devolves to this, simply say you will talk about it after the session. If that doesn't work, demand that it's after the session. If that doesn't work, tell him to buzz off.
As for anti-rogue tactics:
My opinion is that the barbarian and the rogue should deal the most melee damage; both sacrifice AC and other things for the ability to deal ridiculous damage. The barb usually has a lower AC and does consistent chunks of damage. The rogue has to be crafty about it.
The fighter is a meat shield; high AC and high HP. He isn't necessarily the damage dealer.
Anyway... sure, you can create many situations where the rogue will not be able to sneak attack: undead, oozes, and other beings. After a few encounters these become boring and unfair. You can also have battles in small hallways where the rogue can't maneuver without tumbling through an enemy's square.
Your player is probably putting his rogue in an open position when he flanks, yes? He's behind enemy lines, as it were. Have the enemy second ranks grapple him. Pound him into submission. But allow him to tumble around getting sneak attacks! Allow him to flank. Allow him to cleverly avoid aoo's. Allow him to use his blindfight ability (Dungeon Delvers [S&S] get very little otherwise in their abilities). Allow him to do these things.
But don't forget that his enemies will begin to anticipate him. His enemies have been warned against him. NPC's have been handpicked to assassinate him. Cast deafness on him and remove his blindsight, if it's sonic based. Play up the intelligence of the enemies.
Don't let him push you around.
Good luck.
Tom Cashel
First Post
[Felix--love your sig. Please add pronunciation! 
I want to know if those are hard or soft Gs. Sorry for the tangent.]
I want to know if those are hard or soft Gs. Sorry for the tangent.]I dont own any of the books (at least of the 3.0 rules) and my knowledge is only based on the SRD and general rules knowledge, but it is stated like this or similar in every book.
"These rules are ment as a guideline to further the game. The Storyteller shouldnt hesitate to use their own systems for any given situation".
Just look that rule up in the book and show that to your player and if he cant live with that...boot him.
On the other hand, just make sure to use the rules you fashioned yourself everytime. I had a gm once who bended the rules to his own whim to his own advantage/pleasure. At one point the rules where in effect at another point the werent...some corridors had strange wands at times for this....ranging from 5 feet, when we wanted to use 2h weapons to 5 yards when 8 medium monsters rushed us.
Anyway...just remember that this is all a game with the purpose of fun for everyone. If the way the game develops isnt fun for you as GM, change it.
"These rules are ment as a guideline to further the game. The Storyteller shouldnt hesitate to use their own systems for any given situation".
Just look that rule up in the book and show that to your player and if he cant live with that...boot him.
On the other hand, just make sure to use the rules you fashioned yourself everytime. I had a gm once who bended the rules to his own whim to his own advantage/pleasure. At one point the rules where in effect at another point the werent...some corridors had strange wands at times for this....ranging from 5 feet, when we wanted to use 2h weapons to 5 yards when 8 medium monsters rushed us.
Anyway...just remember that this is all a game with the purpose of fun for everyone. If the way the game develops isnt fun for you as GM, change it.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks
I know this player type. It is what I susspected, a powergamer who wants his way. What he is doing is classic battle for control. Don't give in. Put your foot down and say Rule 0, even if you don't mean it. This shows who is runing the game. Untill the player learns that, he will keep rule lawering and you will have to boot him. Use cows from space. Make it rain anvils. Anything you must to show that you are in control of the game. This is the only thing some players will respond to.
cptg1481 said:
I know this player type. It is what I susspected, a powergamer who wants his way. What he is doing is classic battle for control. Don't give in. Put your foot down and say Rule 0, even if you don't mean it. This shows who is runing the game. Untill the player learns that, he will keep rule lawering and you will have to boot him. Use cows from space. Make it rain anvils. Anything you must to show that you are in control of the game. This is the only thing some players will respond to.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks
Best Tiny Toons episode ever!
-Hyp.
Best Tiny Toons episode ever!
-Hyp.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks
Classic loony tunes is one anvil, or maybe two.
Babs and Buster pelted Plucky Duck with anvils to the music of The Anvil Chorus for about three minutes solid.
It was glorious.
-Hyp.
Classic loony tunes is one anvil, or maybe two.
Babs and Buster pelted Plucky Duck with anvils to the music of The Anvil Chorus for about three minutes solid.
It was glorious.
-Hyp.
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