DM/Players: How do you handle "hopeless" campaign settings...

[Remathilis]

Midnight, Ravenloft, etc.

DMs: How do you make a game that is defined as hopless or very un-PC friendly. How do you keep up PC spirits? What challenges do you give them? How do you handle increases in power, and how do you keep it fresh?

Players: How do you handle a game you can't "win"? What do you do for character goals, motivations, and keeping yourself alived?

Basically, what do you do to make it fun in a protentially depressing setting?

 

[MarauderX]

Using guerilla tactics and attrition can be great fun if the DM 'allows' it by letting the PCs gather info on important people/events/etc. It's also nice for the good guys, as they really don't have to worry about protecting the innocent - no one is innocent, and everyone is out to get you, so you get to try to kill/subvert them all at some time.
Behind enemy lines is fun when you can get the jump on the baddies, like when a DM lays out a rough map of an enemy-held town and you get to do as you will. Scout it out, plan a raid, execute, plans naturally go awry, escape with your lives, and feel good about the BBEG and dozen or so baddies you dropped - if you are lucky.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Midnight, Ravenloft, etc.

DMs: How do you make a game that is defined as hopless or very un-PC friendly. How do you keep up PC spirits? What challenges do you give them? How do you handle increases in power, and how do you keep it fresh?

Players: How do you handle a game you can't "win"? What do you do for character goals, motivations, and keeping yourself alived?

Basically, what do you do to make it fun in a protentially depressing setting?

well, the unhelpful answer is that I don't. :\ If the game is defined as hopeless, its not going to be fun for me as a player or a DM.

On the other hand, if the game is commonly perceived as hopeless, but there is wiggle room, that a whole other ballgame... the solo game I'm running for my hubby right now could be considered hopeless. His character (a second string prince) was awoken inthe middle of the night by a King's Companion and had to flee his home ahead of a bloody coup, almost dying at the hands of 4 or 5 low level lackeys of the boss villain (they were a small number of his followers, per the leadership feat.) after fleeing the city he found the outlying temple of his god had been desecrated and the priests killed by the userper on his way into town. Over the next couple of days he found that his father and older brother were both dead, along with just about everyone else he cared about, his kingdom was in the possesion of a force of extremely powerful evil, and the extremely powerful evil had a legitiamate succession claim from several centuries back which would give the neighboring kingdoms an excuse not to lift a finger to help.

So, pretty bad. the whole point of the campaign however is that the situation is not hopeless, but rather will require small steps, subtlety and alliance building on a massive scale. Hubby knows that the point of this campaign is for him to gain power, cohorts and allies and eventually come back in wrath and glory. This is the plot, and even if his character doesn't know it, he does. This allows him to act heroicly and make the first steps in this process. And here is the important part - if he didn't know this, if I said "this is a hopeless campaign world where you have been cast out by an unstopable evil which you will never gain the power to challange" he would have been well within reason to get his character as far as the temple of his god in the next kingdom over, seek asylum, don the hat of disguise he has and say "my character lives out his life as a mid level priest and stays out of the way."

so the way I would deal with hopeless settings as a DM is to not make them truely hopeless. let the players know what the potentials for gain and improvement are and play it out. If you really want the setting to be without hope of the characters ever doing anything but surviving a while longer before they are snuffed out by the overwhelming weight of the evil which pervades their world... *shrug* can't help ya.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Mouseferatu]

Personal victories.

If you're out to kill the Darklords, or defeat Izrador once and for all, yeah, it's a hopeless campaign. (Or if it's not, your DM is certainly running it in a different spirit than the writers intended. )

But stories don't have to be about that. A tale can be about finding a lost love stolen by shadowy figures, or freeing a single distant city from the oppression of evil and making it a beacon and example to others.

There's no such thing--well, within reason, of course--as a campaign setting that's so dark and hopeless that a skilled DM and players can't find a way to tell a satisfying, and even hopeful, story.

 

[Tokiwong]

Little victories and personal victories are the way to go, ground the story in a more personl aspect, they don't have to hange the orld, mybe they just save a few lives in a village, make the reward compensatory to the actions but play up the "human" factor that will aid the hero's sense of accomplishment and allow them to feel like they have done something important

 

[Emiricol]

Paka did it right. He singlehandedly convinced me to buy Midnight, a fact I'll be forever grateful for, with his Story Hour.

Part 1 | Part 2

Check it out. Hopeless doesn't necessarily mean futile. Or even really hopeless.

 

[Umbran]

Basically, what do you do to make it fun in a protentially depressing setting?

Typically, I avoid settings that are really hopeless. I don't mind settings where it is nearly hopeless, but when it's pretty darned clear that the characters will have next to no impact on the world, I generally don't bother. It seems more trouble than it is worth.

A good example is the World of Darkness. Specifically, the changes in the metaplot between Mage: the Ascension 2nd Edition and revised Edition. In 2nd edition, the characters are up against pretty hefty odds. The likelyhood of them having positive impact is very, very small, but there's always hope. In the Revised Edition, the hope is pretty much removed. My group voted unanimously to ignore the Revised Edition's metaplot advancement.

Sometimes, hoplessness makes good comedy - Paranoia is a good example of this. The PCs can't win. They can only hope to not lose too quickly

But, if you're going to go down that road, personal victories and personal dillemmas may be your best options. If the character cannot really change the world, have the story center only on the character's immediate vicinity. And don't aim for changing the immediate vicinity - aim for holding the status quo at a tolerable level. When framed properly, you don't necessarily need to succeed to feel good. Simply not losing can be good enough

 

[Tokiwong]

When framed properly, you don't necessarily need to succeed to feel good. Simply not losing can be good enough

Well put that about sums it up in my eyes

 

[Altalazar]

Personal victories and character development. That is what it has to be about, I think. Though you'd have to ask my players what they really enjoyed. Character development certainly got, er, interesting.

(Twas in 2E Ravenloft)

 

[Toras]

As a DM, I tend to soften most of the hopeless scenarios. Especially ones that try to negate or diminish the effect of the pc on a scenario. As others have mentioned, ignoring/altering mage revised is in example. Messing with the spirit of COC was another (COC supers). I am a humanist, and generally hold that humanity can change its own fate. If the character try hard enough and smart enough, they can harness this change.

As a player I have absolute convidence that eventually, if I can survive long enough and grow strong enough, gathering sufficent allies, and gain sufficent backing, I can change anything.
For most modern style campaigns, anyone can be taken down if you want it bad enough. In D&D, most things can eventually be overcome or dealt with in some fashion (save the lady and overpowers).

As one of my character's has said "Hope is a loaded rifle and a sniper's roost."