DM/Players: How do you handle "hopeless" campaign settings...

Remathilis said:
Players: How do you handle a game you can't "win"? What do you do for character goals, motivations, and keeping yourself alived?

Basically, what do you do to make it fun in a protentially depressing setting?

Hopelessness might be ok for a one-shot game of All Flesh Must Be Eaten, but I'm not going to play in a campaign that the GM says is 'hopeless'.

In the Midnight campaign I play in, my character simply refuses to accept that the situation is 'hopeless'. She plans to defeat the Night Kings, rally the forces of Light, and defeat Izrador. All in good time - she just made 4th level.

Really, the way D&D rules work with the exponential power increases by level, in metagame terms there's no reason to think the situation (bad guys triumphant) is hopeless anyway. If the Midnight designers wanted a truly 'hopeless' setting they shouldn't have used D&D as a base; keeping any D&D game truly 'hopeless' requires heavy arbitrary GM intervention which harms the integrity of the setting. If Blake in 'Blake's 7' could hope to defeat the Terran Federation, a party of 20th level D&D PCs certainly can hope to effect some big changes wherever they are!

I don't see Paranoia or Call of Cthulu as 'hopeless' settings - in Paranoia your PCs aren't expected to change the world or overthrow the Computer; just survive in a dysfunctional world. They don't have an inachievable goal; and if it is inachievable - well, it's a comedy setting. If you played it seriously, well, PCs could always flee the Complex to a better place a la Logan's Run, or (likewise) try to change the system from within. Unlikely, but no harder than defeating many real-world dictatorships that have in time passed.

Call of Cthulu is more about the 'real world' and humanity's inherent lack of importance in the universe. Again I see no reason for despair in that (although Lovecraft did) - humans are very good at making themselves feel important to themselves. REH's Conan lives in a basically Cthuloid universe and he seems to do fine, he just doesn't worry about the existential nihilism of it all! The Cthuloid 'End Times' might destroy human civilisation at some unspecified future date, but so will a giant meteor or any other number of causes. Death is part of life - deal with it.

I guess if there is a truly 'hopeless setting' in RPGs, for me it would be Ravenloft, where the whole universe was created as the plaything of evil forces. In that case trying to chang anything will always just make it worse, so apathy is inherently the best policy. Since apathy is boring that's not a setting I'm interested in.
 

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Mouseferatu said:
Personal victories.

If you're out to kill the Darklords, or defeat Izrador once and for all, yeah, it's a hopeless campaign. (Or if it's not, your DM is certainly running it in a different spirit than the writers intended. ;))

Does it say that in the Midnight book (I don't own it)? ie: "If you the GM are allowing the theoretical possibility of defeating the Night Kings and Izrador, you are going against our intent as writers"?

From what I know I get the impression that the intent of the Midnight writers seems rather muddled, some people play the setting as about 'hope' (yes, nothing is impossible, just incredibly difficult), others as about 'despair' (no, you can't win, deal with it).
 

S'mon said:
Does it say that in the Midnight book (I don't own it)? ie: "If you the GM are allowing the theoretical possibility of defeating the Night Kings and Izrador, you are going against our intent as writers"?

From what I know I get the impression that the intent of the Midnight writers seems rather muddled, some people play the setting as about 'hope' (yes, nothing is impossible, just incredibly difficult), others as about 'despair' (no, you can't win, deal with it).

Not at all. But one needs to take into account not merely what the book says, but the dynamics of the setting itself. The setting as written doesn't allow for much in the way of hope for truly defeating Izrador. If the PCs defeat Izrador, the setting, as currently written, ceases to exist. Therefore, it seems to me that the general intent was more along the "This is how things are, deal with it" line than the "Your PCs will be the ones to save the world" line. Nothing wrong with playing it that way, but it's not--as I see it--really the way it was intended.

Of course, my interpreation could also be off. :)
 

Hm, that's like saying that Greyhawk doesn't allow for the possibility of defeating Iuz because the published Greyhawk setting depends on Iuz's continued existence! :)

Clearly, making a big change to a published setting - defeating a Night King, say - will take it away from the 'official' setting. That's quite different from an in-setting stipulation that the setting is inherently unchangeable. Eg at the front of my 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set it says something like "Oerth is yours now, to do with as you will" - ie it gives explicit permission to change the setting. In fact I think it's hard to run epic-style fantasy _without_ allowing for the possibility of the protagonists effecting major changes to the world - Frodo destroys the One Ring and ends the Third Age, Covenant defeats Lord Foul, etc.

In regards to the Midnight setting specifically, I would tend to think that defeating Izrador (or his re-Ascension) would most likely be the campaign-ending event, comparable to the end of a fantasy novel trilogy, and any post-victory play would resemble those sequels that authors sometimes tack on (usually with unfortunate results). But that's not a bad thing. A Midnight campaign that went from 1st to 20th+ level over maybe a few years' game-play and climaxed with the defeat of Izrador and the beginning of a new Age for the world would, frankly, be my perfect Midnight campaign. It would feel like I'd played one of the protagonists in an epic fantasy novel trilogy. It would be cool. :)
 

I once runned a short-lived Wraith campaign, in which every scenario was out of continuity. It always ended with the ultimate defeat and demise of the PCs, and the triumph of their enemies, over and over again, with the same characters and NPCs, a la Aeon Flux. Great fun.
 

Little victories that lead up to the great big one. Stories that revolve around bringing hope back to the commoners. Stuff like that. Robotech: Invid Invasion and Twilight:2000 were both pretty hopeless settings but my players still loved playing in them. In the darkest realm is where the most good can be done. :D
 

Calico_Jack73 said:
Little victories that lead up to the great big one. Stories that revolve around bringing hope back to the commoners. Stuff like that. Robotech: Invid Invasion and Twilight:2000 were both pretty hopeless settings but my players still loved playing in them. In the darkest realm is where the most good can be done. :D
True. Sometimes it is better to cast an empowered quickened sonically substituted fireball than to curse the darkness.
 

shilsen said:
True. Sometimes it is better to cast an empowered quickened sonically substituted fireball than to curse the darkness.

That's my "quote of the day." Thank you for that one! :D
 

Hopeless campaign settings: If by that you mean campaign settings that won't allow any major changes, I stay away from them, both as a DM and as a player. Freedom of choice and potential impact on the game world for PCs and players is central to my enjoyment of the game. You won't find me playing in a Ravenloft game, for instance, nor in a canon Forgotten Realms campaign where the Big Plot and timeline are dictated by the plotlines of novels.

Player-unfriendly settings: If by that you mean settings in which the odds are stacked against the PCs to make for a more challenging game, I potentially like those a lot - if the challenges make for a game with a heroic feel.
I try to use the stacked odds to make the game more challenging and enjoyable. Tricky balance because if the players can't see how to succeed at anything they'd like to do, they'll become frustrated - OTOH if the odds are conveniently lowered or 'forgotten about' by the GM, the game will lose its specialness and you might as well be playing standard DnD instead.

I'm currently running a Midnight campaign (the one S'mon is talking about above), and yup, to clarify my position, I'm one of those DMs who don't rate Midnight among the 'hopeless' settings. In my game I'll definitely allow major changes to the game world. If the PCs survive and grow powerful enough to think they can take on a Night King, for instance, they will be more than welcome.

Some of the stacked odds in Midnight and how I use them:

'Guerrilla'. That's what I thought immediately when I first read the campaign setting. Not necessarily true for everyone out there, but certainly true for me. Broadly speaking, that theme determines the challenges I try to provide: at low to mid-levels, missions that'll take the PCs in behind enemy lines, likely involving combat challenges, and will force them to adapt quickly as the situation changes (or their original information turns out to have been incomplete or plain wrong). This means my game is fairly combat-heavy, and 'mere' survival in the sense of finding food and keeping your head low otherwise isn't generally going to be a main focus of our game sessions.
(In hindsight, I should have stressed that last bit at the outset of my game - some groups play Midnight with a focus on such things and while it hadn't occurred to me, some of my players were also paddling furiously into a 'heavy resource-management' direction until I picked up on that and could take steps to counteract it.)

'Outnumbered'. The combat challenges the group has faced so far have been difficult to deadly. Last session the party of four 3rd-level PCs went up against a vastly superior band of 'gone-bad' Sarcosan riders. If they'd blindly followed their orders (to bodyguard a NPC gnome trader who was going to trade for horses with them), it'd have been a TPK, with the gnome captured and delivered over to the Legates. As it was, they finally worked out that walking a client into a trap wasn't such a good idea. They left the gnome behind and found a way to track down the Sarcosans and wiped out their camp in a night surprise attack, and captured the 8th level leader with only one PC casualty.

'Outgunned'. Fine line that. Midnight assumes that the forces of Shadow are better equipped than the PCs, but in a game run my style successful PCs will overtake NPCs equipment-wise in the long run. After their deserved success over the Sarcosans last sessions, the three surviving PCs are equipped considerably better than suggested MN wealth standards for their levels.

'Last Heroes'. In Midnight, if you don't step on up to be heroes, chances are there will be no heroes left. What the PCs have yet seen of their part of the world mostly looks pretty devoid of hope - I had to provide incentive for players to live up against that, but I refused to give them outside 'hope', such as a prophecy, or being 'chosen' by powerful allies or some such.
Instead I started them out running from orcs and desperate to get through the lines to relative safety in a human refugee camp in the Elven Forest. The commander of the camp promptly sent them off on the gnome-guarding mission - obviously, as one PC remarked, that commander had no one more expendable at hand.
An interim attempt on the PCs' part to ingratiate themselves with the Elves didn't go so well when they unknowingly transported a Shadow device deeply into the Forest, where it might have done serious damage and lastingly weakened the Elves' magical defences.
My success with the Last Heroes aspect varied at first with my group (all seasoned DnD players). Two players took to it immediately, while others had more difficulty adapting and creating their own personal 'bubble of hope' without relying on what NPCs might be thinking.
I love how now after maybe half a dozen sessions, most of the players have developed a sense of heroism all of their own.

'Heroes' Legacy'. This one's actually not stacked against the PCs but works in their favour. (Gotta give them heroes a break ...)
Midnight provides a very nifty (if only half-designed) DM's reward tool in the form of covenant items, basically items with a 'themed' bunch of magic effects that the wielder gradually gains access to as he/she gains levels. The written history of sample covenant items shows that they are supposed to have been imbused with slivers of the souls of former hero wielders. I took that a step further. In my game covenent items can't be Crafted, they can only be found - or may come to exist, or be modified, spontaneously through some heroic act.
One covenant item in my party (a pair of bracelets worn by two brothers) is currently undergoing such a minor change, after one brother put himself forward in the battle against the Sarcosan leader and wounded him seriously before he was killed. I gave the player an opportunity to send 'dying words' to his brother (absent because the player's currently away from town), and will give the bracelets a related new power.
Since putting on a covenant item (or unlocking a new power) tends to trigger stored 'memories' of former users, the PC rogue's dying whisper to keep up the fight will now accompany the new wearer iinto the future.
 

A current player described my world as grim as Darksun and as bleak as Ravenloft. There is evil everywhere in my world, and most of it are mortals who do whatever they can in order to survive. For example, one of the most strongest mortal churches regurlarly purchases slaves in order to sacrafice them in their weekly meetings.

As dark as this is, players get to meet others who struggle agaisnt this tyranny. They can rarely do so openly, but they make small and valiant efforts of helping good aligned people.

PC spirits are usually very good, because they do missions that they can actually accomplish, and are praised for it by their allies. They know that evil is everywhere, so every small step they make brings more hope into the world.

Increases in power, just increase the danger that they are willing to face. The players have figured out I'm not an Epic style DM, but since they don't face epic challenges, they can handle whatever I throw at them. It's never easy, but they always seem to find a way.
 

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