DM Question: Mind Blank

[LordAO]

Funny, I thought scrying only allowed you to target creatures, not areas (which I didn't like, personally). So how do you randomly scry areas? If I understand correctly, if you try to scry on someone, you will only see the area they occupy, but not them. As far as what spells will work and what won't, I think that only spells which target the creature DIRECTLY won't work. The spell says it stops spells that influence or detect thoughts, or gather info about the subject. Only spells which do that are blocked by the spell. That is why I don't think mind blank has any effect on true seeing or see invisibility, they aren't actively "detecting" the character, merely allowing you to see them, despite illusions. Spells like locate creature, know alignment, scrying, etc actually target the individual or detect them, so they wouldnt work. See Invisibility isn't detecting their thoughts or gathering info about the subject, so it wouldn't be blocked. The thing with true seeing and See Invisibility that sets them apart is that they still rely upon mundane observation. You still have to spot an invisible creature, even if you have see invisibility on. That opposed to having a detection or scrying spell that says (theyre over there!).

 

[Celtavian]

Re

The Spell does specify person rather than location. Still doesn't change much. What if an individual with Mind Blank on is standing next to an individual without Mind Blank? Will the mind blanked person be seen because he is being indirectly scried upon?

How does a caster get by See Invisibility and True Seeing? It seems very odd that there is no spell to counter detection spells of this kind. This would make it night impossible to enter even the lowliest wizards place.

See invisibility items are not that hard to make or put permanently on someone.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Use Nondetection.

Mage + invisibility + nondetection = hard to see, ever.

I don't know if this works vs true seeing, but it does work vs see invisibility.

 

[Iku Rex]

Re: Re

What spell allows a person to block detection from short range divinations? Non-detection?

Yes. This is both according to the spell description and the Sage. Which makes his (e-mail) ruling on Mind Blank even stranger.

 

[Thanee]

I fail to see why Nondetection should be any different than Mind Blank when it comes to See Invisible or True Seeing.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

I fail to see why Nondetection should be any different than Mind Blank when it comes to See Invisible or True Seeing.

It shouldn't.

Nondetection should be the lower level gotta make a roll and if you succeed, you bust through with your divination spell. If you fail, you do not bust through.

Mind Blank should be the higher level impossible to bust through spell.

And in fact, if you read the spells literally, that is what they do.

But, the waters got muddy due to two things:

1) Earlier versions of Mind Blank only stopping certain types of Scrys and Detections, not all divinations.

2) The Sage agreeing with earlier versions of the spell as opposed to what is written in 3E.

Either is playable, but if something is written in the core rules and is basically an ok rule (especially as an 8th level spell, shesh), why muck around with Emails and FAQs saying, opps, we really did not mean that? Just suck it up and fix it in 4E if you really do not like it. Mind Blank as written is not game breaking.

A much worse rule than that is the targeting rules for spells. A simple 2nd level Invisibility spell prevents ALL targeting spells (about 50% of the spells in the book) compared to 8th level Mind Blank stopping all Divination spells (about 10% of the spells in the book).

Think about it. Which spell/rule is more broken?

 

[kreynolds]

ahhhhhhhhhh...
I remember fondly the old mind blank vs. true strike debate.

I remember it as well, but not fondly.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Re: Re

I see no reason why true seeing or detect invisibility would detect an invisibly mind blanked individual. If it blocks the location of the individual by divination, then why would it not stop true seeing and detect invisibility from locating an individual who is invisible.

Depends a lot how you think Invisibility works.

If See Invisibility simply improves my senses, then Mind Blank has nothing to do with it.

Suppose I am a color-blind creature. I cast See Color on myself. You have Mind Blank up. Are you in color or in b&w when I look at you? Is See Color 'information gathering', or is it simply allowing me to see things that may be difficult to normally discern for me? The colored light is flying by whether I can see it or not.

There are four obvious ways to look at Invisibility (and there are certainly other more obscure ones):
(1) Invisibility bends 'light waves' around you such that there is nothing to see
(2) Invisibility shifts your appearance into something not normally discernible
(3) Invisibility clouds the observer's mind such that he cannot discern your image
(4) Invisibility shifts you to the plane of Shadow such that living creatures see through you

The last two obviously do not apply to D&D 3e.

The first one is a quasi-scientific explanation not directly supported by the rules, although many readers automatically assume it must be true. Where is the entry for 'light wave' in the core books?

The second one is a quasi-magical explanation not directly supported by the rules, but can be justified by niggling, pendatic, ruleslawyering. Invisible is not defined by the rules, so all it means is its face value 'not seeable (by normal sight)'. Of couse in D&D we know there are all kinds of sight, there are creatures that can see invisible beings prefectly. So when I can See Invisible, it seems obvious that I can now discern those creatures that have the quality Invisible as if it were my normal vision. From this POV, See Invisible is not affecting you, it is only affecting me by improving my senses.

If you accept the first explanation, then it is probable (but not certain) you think Mind Blank foils See Invisibility. If you accept the second explanation, then it is probable (but not certain) you think Mind Blank does not affect See Invisibility.

Similar story for True Seeing, but that situation is more complicated because True Seeing has multiple functions.

Detect spells are usually very different, because they are indirectly affecting you.

 

[KarinsDad]

Re: Re: Re

Depends a lot how you think Invisibility works.

How isn't the issue.

X stops divination spells is the issue.

See Invisibility is a divination spell. By definition, it divines information somehow.

But, personally, I do not care how it does that. I care what it does and what various prevention from divination spells do. What, not how, is the important issue for adjudication since how opens up boatload of options like you listed (and possibly more). IMO.

 

[Hammerhead]

Using that logic, spell resistance or immunities would stop indirect spell effects like Summoned monsters or GMW'd weapons from hurting the creature. After all, it doesn't matter how spell resistance protects from magic, it just does.

However, spell resistence doesn't work that way. It only protects against spells with a direct effect.

You can be completely immune to True Seeing, but if you're invisible and I have True Seeing, I'll still you. Your immunity means nothing, because true seeing doesn't affect you. Your immunity only protects you from someone casting True Seeing on you.

Also, I'm very wary of any spell combo that allows a mage to be completely undetectable. I wouldn't want a character to be immune to all targeted spells even from magically aware opponents for casting two good spells.

BTW, don't knock Mind Blank. I'd say that its protection against scrying is secondary to its role at blocking all Mind Affecting spells, impressive duration, and castability on others.