DM Question: Mind Blank

[KarinsDad]

Using that logic, spell resistance or immunities would stop indirect spell effects like Summoned monsters or GMW'd weapons from hurting the creature. After all, it doesn't matter how spell resistance protects from magic, it just does.

Not exactly. A implies B does not mean C implies D.

It does not matter how spell resistance works (i.e. in terms of how the magic works), what matters is what it does (i.e. in terms of how the game mechanic works, what does it do?).

It prevents spells which have spell resistance yes from affecting you.

It does not affect Summoned Monsters since they have spell resistance no.

How magic works is totally irrelevant the vast majority of the time. What the game mechanics are is what is important in order to adjudicate properly.

Examples:

Protection From Evil:

"the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned or conjured creatures"

It does not matter which conjuration spell summoned the creature (Gate, Summon Monster I, Summon Swarm), merely that it is a summoned creature.


Mind Blank:

"This spell protects against information gathering by divination spells or effects."

It does not matter which divination spell is used (True Strike, See Invisibility, Detect Thoughts) or what information is gathered (the premise of all divination spells, gaining information that you did not have before casting it), merely that it is a divination spell.

If Mind Blank were worded differently, then it might mean something else. But, it isn't.

 

[kreynolds]

Just remember, everyone. Mind Blank also protects against the horrific 5-foot step.

-- "trolling" kreynolds --

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

If Mind Blank were worded differently, then it might mean something else. But, it isn't.

Unfortunately the phrase "information gathering" really muddies the waters. Is True Strike or See Invisible information gathering? It is not obvious.

I recognize you have a strong case. But if I am not sure about an answer I am going to attempt to discern intent. And so Why is an important question...

If we go by intent then the first sentence seems to be the important one, the rest is merely clarification which can only be understood in the context of the first sentence.

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts.

Since True Strike, See Invisible do not do any of the above, then maybe Mind Blank would not apply? Ditto for some of the functions of True Seeing.

 

[kreynolds]

If we go by intent then the first sentence seems to be the important one, the rest is merely clarification which can only be understood in the context of the first sentence.

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts.

Since True Strike, See Invisible do not do any of the above, then maybe Mind Blank would not apply? Ditto for some of the functions of True Seeing.

Damn nice Ridley! You nailed it.

 

[LordAO]

Nowhere in mind blank's description does it say it makes you immune to ALL divinations! Only Those spells which detect or influence your thoughts or mind, or gather info about you. Another example about the see invisibility issue, If I cast scent on myself, can I not smell a mind blanked character? See invisibility is the same way. As for how to sneek into the mage's tower, just that, SNEAK. It doesn't matter if someone has see invisibility if you succeed at your hide check. See invisibility doesnt actually detect anything, it only improves your mundane senses and allows you to see them, but doesnt guarantee that you will.

 

[KarinsDad]

Nowhere in mind blank's description does it say it makes you immune to ALL divinations! Only Those spells which detect or influence your thoughts or mind, or gather info about you.

Divinations spells by their very nature gain information. Divination spells that gain information about the protected creature fail.

What I fail to perceive is why people think that True Strike or See Invisibility is not gathering information about the person protected by Mind Blank.

The information is very specific: location information. In the case of True Strike, location information powerful enough to give a +20 bonus to an attack.

But, it is information nonetheless. And, it is information about the protected creature.

If you do not cast the divination spell (regardless of what it might be), do you have the same information as not casting it?

No.

The spell is quite specific. It does not state only divination spells which gain information from the mind of the protected character.

How is See Invisibility ANY different than Detect Poison? In both cases, you are perceiving something that you could not perceive without the divination spell and it is giving you information about the target.

Like I said previously, the designers may have meant it to mean only divination spells which affect the mind or something, but that is not what is written.

PS. Detect Magic is not a divination spell, it is a universal spell, hence, it is not stopped by Nondetection or Mind Blank. However, it should be both.

 

[LordAO]

Divinations spells by their very nature gain information. Divination spells that gain information about the protected creature fail.

Not all divinations give information, some only enhance the perceptions or senses of the character.

What I fail to perceive is why people think that True Strike or See Invisibility is not gathering information about the person protected by Mind Blank.

The information is very specific: location information. In the case of True Strike, location information powerful enough to give a +20 bonus to an attack.

You are going WAY too far with this. True strike gives a slight insight into future events, enabling you to better attack. That's just flavor text anyway. Why can't true strike be blocked by mind blank? because it targets the caster, not the person with mind blank. All it does is give a +20 to hit, not read the targets mind.

How is See Invisibility ANY different than Detect Poison? In both cases, you are perceiving something that you could not perceive without the divination spell and it is giving you information about the target.

There is a big difference betwwen see invisibility and detect poison, I've tried to explain this the last three times ive posted, but you obviously arent getting it. Detect poison uses magic to scan an area, analyzing an object or creature, probing it looking for poison. The same is true of detect alignment, locate creature, scrying, etc. But not see invisibility or truee seeing. Again they arent targeting the creature, just the caster of the spell. Its not an active scan, but rather an enhancement to your normal senses that allows you to percieve invisible creatures with mundane vision. And thats the key here. MUNDANE VISION. Detect poison and similar spells actually look for and find something for you. See invisibility, scent, low light vision, and similar spells merely give you the ability to see such creatures, but doesnt find them for you. You must succeed at the spot check, etc.
If i cast low light vision on myself, can i not see a mind blanked character if he/she is beyond the normal range of my vision? Of course I can! The same is true of spells such as see invisibility. Its the difference between active detection and passive detection. Mind blank doesnt block passive detection.
It all comes down to a simple question? Can people see people with mind blank? can they touch them smell them etc? Yes to all of those questions. See invisibility merely enhances one of those senses. As such mind blank cant touch it. Period.

 

[KarinsDad]

Originally posted by LordAO
Not all divinations give information, some only enhance the perceptions or senses of the character.

And, how exactly is enhancing your senses not giving you additional information that you would not have had without the spell?

The type of information is irrelevant unless it is not information about a creature (in the case of Mind Blank).

Originally posted by LordAO
Why can't true strike be blocked by mind blank? because it targets the caster, not the person with mind blank. All it does is give a +20 to hit, not read the targets mind.

It does not matter if it targets the caster. It still gives information about the protected target.

How is knowing exactly where he will be a few seconds in the future NOT giving you information about the target?

Originally posted by LordAO
There is a big difference betwwen see invisibility and detect poison, I've tried to explain this the last three times ive posted, but you obviously arent getting it.

Please. Don’t be condescending. I understand you quite well.

Originally posted by LordAO
Detect poison uses magic to scan an area, analyzing an object or creature, probing it looking for poison.
...
Period.

Semantics.

Low light vision is a transmutation.

Darkvision is a transmutation.

If See Invisibility were a transmutation, then your theory about it only affecting the creature it is cast on would be valid.

However, it is a divination spell.

Bottom line.

Look at Clairvoyance. It’s stopped by Mind Blank.

Arcane Eye? Stopped.

The point is that there is NOTHING in the description of See Invisibility that indicates that it is NOT stopped by Mind Blank.

You are merely making up an external rationalization which the spell descriptions do not support.

Show me text from the spell descriptions that clearly call out that See Invisibility is not stopped by Mind Blank.

I’ve already shown you text from the Mind Blank spell that states that it stops divinations that give information about the protected creature. It won’t stop divinations that give information about anything else, but it will stop those attempting to gain information about the protected creature.

See Invisibility is a divination spell. It gives information on the location of the target that he would not have if he did not cast the spell. It matters not that the information is acquired through the eyes. It matters not that in some cases, the target of See Invisibility might need to make a Spot roll to actually see his target.

Without See Invisibility, he could not spot his target. Hence, it is giving information to him if he does spot his target.

I cannot even comprehend that people think that Mind Blank will even stop a Wish spell when it is used to gain information about a target, but that a mere True Strike can bypass Mind Blank and gain information on the targets location well enough to virtually guarantee a hit with a weapon.

 

[LordAO]

Mind Blank only foils wish if it is used to affect the subjects mind or gain info about him. And even if true seeing and see invisibility were foiled by mind blank, true strike wouldnt be. What you're doing is making mind blank the most powerful spell in the entire game. It's not. You could use that kind of pseudopsientific reasoning to adjucate any spell, and all you get is a mess. Remember the whole frredom of movement spell causing someone to fall through water debate? It's the same thing here. What about expeditious retreat? It says as part of its description that it makes your bounds longer, faster etc. does that mean i can't benefit from it while im flying? Of course not! There's a difference between flavor text and the rules themselves. The flavor text is there to give personality to the game, nothing more. If you want mind blank to work the way you say it should, fine, make it an epic spell (because that's what it would be).

 

[Ristamar]

Ah, another old, heated topic. Hehe.

I'll repost the reply I received from the Sage the last time this issue came up:

Dear Mr. Williams,

There have been lengthy discussions revolving around the Mind Blank spell on the ENWorld messageboards.

Some people have too much time on their hands, eh?

You recently answered a question regarding the Mind Blank spell vs. the effects of True Strike, stating that Mind Blank does not affect True Strike.

Many people resting on both sides of the issue we're hoping you could offer an explanation as to why it does not.

True strike doesn't reveal anything about a particular creature, so mind blank has no effect on the spell.

In addition, there have been questions raised concerning how Mind Blank functions in conjunction with other spells. For example, lets say a wizard casts Mind Blank and Improved Invisibility on himself. Does the the invisibilty now count as part of the caster, or is it considered a seperate entity in regards to spells like See Invisibility?

Mind blank is not effective against see invisibility (non detection is). Mind blank protects against devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. And against scrying, which is magical information gathering conducted remotely. See invisibility is not scrying.

In other words, is the Mind Blanked/Invisible wizard protected from See Invisibility? Detect Magic? True Seeing?

No in all three cases.

What about magic equipment and weapons the caster is carrying... do the same conditions apply?

See previous answer.

In short, if you could offer up a more detailed and comprehensive explanation of Mind Blank and the protections it does or does not afford (beyond what is provided in the PHB), it would be much appreciated.

See previous answers.



Skip Williams
RPG R&D

I liked this ruling, as it meshed with my original interpretation and what I thought was designer intent. Others did not think so fondly of it. YMMV.