DM Seeking advice:Disintegrate Counters needed

[Shayuri]

Anti Disintegration Tactics

Having recently created a high level spellcaster, I have recently been confronted with the spectre of Fort-Save-Or-Die magic effects as well. While so-called "death effects" weren't too hard to manage through some snappy PrC work, the Disintegrate spell gave me some headaches. Given that my character will be sporting a DC 35 Disintegrate, I decided right away that I needed to have the tools at hand to survive my own attacks, reasoning that we'd likely be up against enemies at LEAST as powerful.

Here's a short list of what I found applicable. Your mileage may vary. Note that I'll be listing every countermeasure I can think of here, including a few the original poster wished to exclude. This isn't aimed specifically at the original poster's issue...it's more of a general thing. With one hand do I give, with the other do I smite.

1) Spellward: Disintegrate. A magic weapon can be given this +1 effect from Magic of Faerun. Spellward allows the weapon to absorb any one spell (with no noted restrictions save that it can't be area effect) harmlessly, then re-release it on a following turn as a standard action. This is the solution I wound up using in creating the Guardian Sceptre item I tote around.

2) Save boosts. This can, in theory, work better. The idea is to use a combination of arcane and divine buffs to whack your Fort save WAY up there. Endurance (or items that raise Con), Protection from Spells (or items that give resistance bonuses) and morale bonuses (via Emotion or similar) are all in the purview of the arcane. Divine casters then get a bevvy of other options. Problem here is that it requires time to set up. You may not have that time.

3) Misdirection/Evasion tactics. Be where the green ray is not. Invisibility or Displacement is good. 50% miss chance. Mirror Image is grand as well. These depend on the foe being suceptible to illusions and so on though. A single True Sight can ruin your day. Similarly, crank that touch AC falls into this category. Mages have a surprisingly large amount of spells that help with this. Shield gives a cool +7 to touch AC for a mere 1st level spell. Haste adds another +4. If you use any of Mr.Cook's spells, the Warding Globe spell allows up to +6 in deflection bonuses. Ghostform from Tome and Blood can be useful, especially for sorcerors, since it causes the caster to become incorporeal. Not only do you get that flat 50% miss chance (which does apply to Disintegrate, since it uses an attack roll and is not a force effect) but you also get a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier.

4) Counterspells. This is mainly applicable if the meanie has an extra partial action...which if he's 23rd level, he most certainly should for any serious fight. Save that partial and watch the wizard like a hawk. Feats relating to counterspelling (improved counterspell and reactive counterspell) can be of immense aid here.

5) Other keen items. The Ring of Spell Battle from Magic of Faerun allows an automatic counterspell action, and can thus be quite handy. Granted it's only 1/day, and only a Dispel Magic counter, so there's still a caster level check. The Ring of Nine Lives allows autosuccesses on saves (up to nine, but usually less).

6) Epic Stuff! If the critter is caster level 23, are you following the Epic Level Book? An Epic Spell using the Ward seed could easily (and rather cheaply, comparatively speaking) block all spells of 6th level or lower...kind of like a "Globe of Absolute Invulnerability" or something.

Also, some possible clarification on item use. Not saying anyone's wrong; just putting some more evidence on the table.

Note that in Tome & Blood, in the part talking about familiars, we see that animals (and by extension, magical beasts) can be said to have item "slots." Some animals may not have the full range, but since magic items, by default, scale themselves to their owners, an animal that is either trained to tolerate it...or smart enough to put up with it...can wear most magic items that aren't specifically designed for humanoid features (a la gloves).

This suggests to me that a dragon, which has "fingers" that are capable of manipulating the environment, could probably wear rings. It might have trouble with cloaks, due to the wings. Boots too probably wouldn't work so well. Not that items that fulfill similar roles couldn't be custom made by or for dragons.

 

[drnuncheon]

The description of Polymorph Other from T&B.

If the new form is a creature that does not use equipment (aberration, animal, beast, magical beast, construct, dragon, elemental, ooze, some outsiders, plant, some undead creatures, some shapechangers, or vermin

None those listed use equipment or have item slots, and because of that, your equipment melds into your body when you polymorph into one.

Hmm. Is there anything other than the most-revised spell in 3rd Edition? Because I can find several counterexamples from other places in the books.

For example, a half-dragon is of creature type 'dragon', but they are certainly capable of using equipment. Driders are abberations but their stat block includes short swords and shortbows. Iron golems are constructs but sometimes weild a short sword. Mind flayers are aberrations, banelars are magical beasts, etc, etc.

J

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

How about Spell Resistance or an Anti-Magic Shell? Unholy Aura would work as well if your party is good (spell resistance 25 and bonus to saves IIRC). How about Prismatic Sphere and Spring Attack? IIRC, spellcasters can pass through their own prismatic spheres with impunity.

Round 1 Haste, prismatic sphere. Round 2 Expeditious retreat, spring attack, (and quickened magic missile the party in order to determine who's immune to magic missile via Shield or a brooch or something else) and return to the sphere. Round 3, Cast Harm (via Wish if necessary), spring attack to deliver the touch attack (and a quickened Magic Missile/Ice Storm) and return to sphere. Round 4, Repeat as necessary.

Of course by round 2 or 3, a 18th level party will be pretty well into destroying the sphere and will probably start readying actions to stop the spring attack once they've seen it in action for one or two rounds.

That's when you add spell resistance, etc. to the mix and/or summon monsters to keep the party busy.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Disintegrate doesn't destroy loot. Isn't that odd...

Anyway, it shouldn't affect incorporeal creatures.

 

[kreynolds]

Because I can find several counterexamples from other places in the books.

For example, a half-dragon is of creature type 'dragon', but they are certainly capable of using equipment. Driders are abberations but their stat block includes short swords and shortbows. Iron golems are constructs but sometimes weild a short sword. Mind flayers are aberrations, banelars are magical beasts, etc, etc.

None of these are solid counterexamples, and for one very simple reason: Weapons are slotless. You don't need an item slot to use a weapon. You just need the appendage to wield the weapon.

EDIT: Also, a Half-Dragon/Half-(humanoid type, such as humanoid, giant, etc) have item slots just like a normal humanoid. Driders can wear rings though, since their hands are just like a humanoids, and it would stand to reason that they could wear other equipment as well (there is a drider in City of the Spider Queen that has a ring of protection). Basically, if it's somewhat humanoid, it has item slots. If it has hands (not just claws), it can wield weapons. If it has a humanoid head, it can wear a headband, goggles, helm, etc.

And don't forget that just about anything can be outfitted with armor (or barding).

 

[Oni]

Two questions.

What of the example of familiars wearing various item from Tome and Blood?

Can you provide any example other than the polymorph spell (which doesn't even actually turn you into a creature of that type anyway)?

 

[kreynolds]

What of the example of familiars wearing various item from Tome and Blood?

Which ones? I'll take a look.

Can you provide any example other than the polymorph spell

Yeah. Wildshape.

(which doesn't even actually turn you into a creature of that type anyway)?

The creature type doesn't have anything to do with it. Your actual form does, so "type" is irrelevant.

 

[Oni]

Which ones? I'll take a look.

See page 18-19 of T&B, there is a section specifically on familiars and magic items.

Originally posted by kreynolds Yeah. Wildshape.

Of course Wildshape is based on the Polymorph spells so basically your just re-referencing Polymorph. Let me ask this way, can you provide an example that doesn't point back to polymorph? Spells are not good examples when unsupported as they often have their own rules minutia specific to them, especially in the case of spells as complicated as polymorph spells. One would think that something as blatent as large groups of creatures not being able to use a large portion of magic items would have been hinted at somewhere else besides the most eratted spell in the game.

Originally posted by kreynolds The creature type doesn't have anything to do with it. Your actual form does, so "type" is irrelevant.

The idea was this, the spell doesn't actually make you into the creature and thus is not a good example of what the creature can and cannot do.



Examples of Creatures using magic items: Klauth, the great red wyrm from the FRCS (pg167) has a Ring of Wizardry II in his possession, the effects of which are clearly reflected in the number of second level spell he can cast.

Yarrick Zan, the mindflayer assassin from Enemies & Allies (pg10-11). He has two rings and a cloak (the ring of protection and the cloak of resistance both reflected in the AC and saves in the stat block.

Anrenay, an ettercap cleric from E&A (pg45). Wears +1 scale mail.

Lord Carrion, a flesh golem from E&A (pg48). Wears +3 rhino hide armor.

There are more examples in E&A.

As for why none of this comes from the Monsters manual (as I imagine that question is coming), well the creatures there are barebones waiting for DM's to spruce them up for their individual games.

 

[kreynolds]

See page 18-19 of T&B, there is a section specifically on familiars and magic items.

I think it would be a real stretch to apply that passage to anything besides familiars. I don't think they were speaking in a broad sense.

Of course Wildshape is based on the Polymorph spells so basically your just re-referencing Polymorph.

You asked for another example. I gave you one. You don't need to take it out on me if you don't like it. I didn't write the book.

can you provide an example that doesn't point back to polymorph?

I can't think of one right now, but then, it's pretty early in the day for me.

The idea was this, the spell doesn't actually make you into the creature and thus is not a good example of what the creature can and cannot do.

But that's immaterial. It doesn't matter what your type is, just your form. Magic items very rarely ever care what your type is in the first place, unless of course you're on the receiving end of an Arrow of Slaying.

Examples of Creatures using magic items: Klauth, the great red wyrm from the FRCS (pg167) has a Ring of Wizardry II in his possession, the effects of which are clearly reflected in the number of second level spell he can cast.

I'm sure you're aware that he can wear the ring while polymorphed into a humanoid, so that's not a problem. But, according to the rules, the ring would be absorbed into his body when he changed back.

Yarrick Zan, the mindflayer assassin from Enemies & Allies (pg10-11). He has two rings and a cloak (the ring of protection and the cloak of resistance both reflected in the AC and saves in the stat block.

With the exception of their head, Mind Flayers are very humanoid. You have to think in this matter, use your own logic. Besides, you must not have read the drider example above for you to even bring this one up.

Anrenay, an ettercap cleric from E&A (pg45). Wears +1 scale mail.

Lord Carrion, a flesh golem from E&A (pg48). Wears +3 rhino hide armor.

Again, you've missed something pretty important...

...almost anything can wear armor or barding. These two examples aren't exceptional at all.

As for why none of this comes from the Monsters manual (as I imagine that question is coming)

That was rather presumtuous. Why on earth would I expect you to cite examples from a book that doesn't contain a single creature with equipment, even humanoids, in the first place? (Again, weapons don't count. Anything with a hand can use a weapon.)

It was shown to me above that some creatures, like driders, do indeed have at least some item slots. In other words, it looks to be like a case by case basis, and some creatures are easier to figure out than others. Fun, eh?

 

[Oni]

I think it would be a real stretch to apply that passage to anything besides familiars. I don't think they were speaking in a broad sense.

How does the form of a (for example) psuedodragon that is a familiar differ from the form of one that is not? I think this is important as you seem to be so focused on form rather than type.

You asked for another example. I gave you one. You don't need to take it out on me if you don't like it. I didn't write the book.

There is no reason to get defensive. You gave an example, and I gave a suitable (at least I hope it was) rebuttal to that example. I'm not taking anything out on you, simply looking for the most concrete evidence you can provide of your argument.

I can't think of one right now, but then, it's pretty early in the day for me.

I urge you to keep looking, but I think you'll have a difficult time finding an example that doesn't come back to Polymorph.

But that's immaterial. It doesn't matter what your type is, just your form. Magic items very rarely ever care what your type is in the first place, unless of course you're on the receiving end of an Arrow of Slaying.

You say immaterial, I say another good reason why Polymorph isn't a good indicator. However we can just skip on this one for now as it's not particularly important.

I'm sure you're aware that he can wear the ring while polymorphed into a humanoid, so that's not a problem. But, according to the rules, the ring would be absorbed into his body when he changed back.

The changes in spells per day is reflected in his statblock as a dragon. Not only that, there isn't a single form changing spell on his spell list, and reds don't have that ability naturally. Not to mention if he were somehow polymorphed and turned into a human wearing his ring, and then the spell was dispelled does the ring magically disappear?

With the exception of their head, Mind Flayers are very humanoid. You have to think in this matter, use your own logic. Besides, you must not have read the drider example above for you to even bring this one up.

Based on the Polymorph spells you said, "None those listed use equipment or have item slots, and because of that, your equipment melds into your body when you polymorph into one." That is a very absolute statement. According to your own argument it would be impossible for the Mindflayer to wear rings, or use the cloak. I did read the drider example above, and had basically ignored it since you countered your own argument, I wanted to give you a chance to defend you stance.

Again, you've missed something pretty important...

...almost anything can wear armor or barding. These two examples aren't exceptional at all.

I refer you to my argument above.

That was rather presumtuous. Why on earth would I expect you to cite examples from a book that doesn't contain a single creature with equipment, even humanoids, in the first place? (Again, weapons don't count. Anything with a hand can use a weapon.)

Nothing presumtuous about it, I felt that it was a legitamate question some people reading this thread might raise, as I myself might have were I reading someone elses argument. I most certainly wasn't speaking directly to you, as I have no clue what you expect.

I would also ask why weapons do not count. Your example, "When the polymorph occurs, the creature's equipment, if any, transforms to match the new form. If the new form is a creature that does not use equipment (aberration, animal, beast, magical beast, construct, dragon, elemental, ooze, some outsiders, plant, some undead creatures, some shapechangers, or vermin), the equipment melds into the new form and becomes nonfucntional." This makes no distinction between slotted equipment and non-slotted equipment. If you use this as the basis of your argument then you must include weapons even if they are a handy counter arguement.

It was shown to me above that some creatures, like driders, do indeed have at least some item slots. In other words, it looks to be like a case by case basis, and some creatures are easier to figure out than others. Fun, eh?

So then Polymorph has no bearing on the situation? If we are deciding on a case by case basis I think that would be the case. That brings us full circle back around to the familiars and Klauth.