D&D 5E DMG Creating Monster Disparity

[DaveDash]

Most casters in the MM suffer from that glass cannon problem. I give higher CR casters hundreds of hitpoints (200+) to compensate, otherwise they're ineffective and dead round 1 or 2.

Even "defensive" creatures though like the Iron Golem don't add up. They come in about CR12 and not CR16.

Dragons are mostly OK but you have the keep them mobile to keep them alive, because they lack th hitpoints to go toe to toe with a party. This makes them a bit awkward because outside their breath weapon, their DPR relies on them getting in close.

I have a Kraken in my game which the party wisely has avoided thus far, but its damage looks very weak for its CR. It could be annoying to fight in water though.

Vampires are VERY weak for their CR. I can't get a CR of 13 for them at all, and they're not great in combat either. I've given them a big DPR boost.

A lot of the "problem" stems from monster damage seems to be based on weapon + size + modifier. According to the DMG at higher levels monsters need to be doing 100+ DPR, and to get close to that you need lots of extra damage dice piled on.

I think th DMG rules work out better, personally. High level combat feels like low level combat when your monsters hit hard and have staying power for a good 2-3 rounds.

I think that the design intent behind stuff in the MM seems to be lots of CR 1-5 monsters in combat, even right up to the high levels. This works well, combined with a higher CR or two. But a "solo" from the MM doesn't generally last long at all.

 

[Chocolategravy]

Vampires are VERY weak for their CR. I can't get a CR of 13 for them at all, and they're not great in combat either. I've given them a big DPR boost.

Vampires are INT 17 meaning they're probably WAY smarter than the DM. They can move 120 feet and make 2 charm attacks per turn. They ignore 3 CC effects with legendary resistance. Any party that can't deal with the high movement is effectively facing infinite HPs due to regen. A vampire will very easily dismantle a party that isn't immune to charm. If anything they are very under CRed, at least at night.

They have the biggest and most interesting set of powers in the MM with a longer writeup than even the beholder. They're not about DPR, although with legendary actions they're not bad. If you just want something to pound away on characters there are lots of alternatives.

 

[DaveDash]

Vampires are INT 17 meaning they're probably WAY smarter than the DM. They can move 120 feet and make 2 charm attacks per turn. They ignore 3 CC effects with legendary resistance. Any party that can't deal with the high movement is effectively facing infinite HPs due to regen. A vampire will very easily dismantle a party that isn't immune to charm. If anything they are very under CRed, at least at night.

They have the biggest and most interesting set of powers in the MM with a longer writeup than even the beholder. They're not about DPR, although with legendary actions they're not bad. If you just want something to pound away on characters there are lots of alternatives.

This is a conversation about CR, not how smart or interesting a monster is.

I've used plenty of them in combat and they're a poorly designed monster. Most of their damage potential comes from grappling and biting which is quite frankly the worst thing you can do with them, their charm is next to useless at the level they are encountered, and their regen is also basically useless.

Giving them minions, lairs, traps, and all those things just proves the point they're badly designed and don't stand up to their CR at all.

Giving them a weapon that does an extra 2d10 necrotic damage is a good start, but any Cleric in the party can just laugh in their face (PFE - Necrotic) and spam them with radiant. Their pitiful hitpoints means they last less than a round - as written.

 

[Chocolategravy]

This is a conversation about CR, not how smart or interesting a monster is.

I've used plenty of them in combat and they're a poorly designed monster. Most of their damage potential comes from grappling and biting which is quite frankly the worst thing you can do with them, their charm is next to useless at the level they are encountered, and their regen is also basically useless.

Giving them minions, lairs, traps, and all those things just proves the point they're badly designed and don't stand up to their CR at all.

Giving them a weapon that does an extra 2d10 necrotic damage is a good start, but any Cleric in the party can just laugh in their face (PFE - Necrotic) and spam them with radiant. Their pitiful hitpoints means they last less than a round - as written.

It's pretty clear you're playing them like INT 3 suicidal lemmings locked in a 10x10 room then. With legendary movement and resistance it should be practically impossible to kill them in 1 round even for a high level party.

The charm is utterly devastating for characters that aren't immune, and is a death sentence unless removed. Saying it's useless is pretty hilarious. Please tell me what ability in the book beats an at-will twice a round DC 17 ability that takes the character out of the fight for 24 hours and makes them willingly die to the enemy and can by used by a bat that strafes by?

 

[DaveDash]

It's pretty clear you're playing them like INT 3 suicidal lemmings locked in a 10x10 room then. With legendary movement and resistance it should be practically impossible to kill them in 1 round even for a high level party.

The charm is utterly devastating for characters that aren't immune, and is a death sentence unless removed. Saying it's useless is pretty hilarious. Please tell me what ability in the book beats an at-will twice a round DC 17 ability that takes the character out of the fight for 24 hours and makes them willingly die to the enemy and can by used by a bat that strafes by?

Assuming standard party - Cleric, Wizard, Fighter, Rogue.

Charm is easily dealt with spells like Protection from Evil, Calm Emotions, Dispel Evil and Good, etc etc. It's basically a waste of an action for the Vampire, and if he/she is fighting alone, he/she can't afford to be wasting actions like that on useless spells.

The Wizard has numerous tools in his toolkit to lock the Vampire down. Bigby's hand is devastating against Vampires since they (as written) don't have a ranged attack. This is available to the Wizard at level 9. Spells like Sunbeam utterly destroy undead - vampires included - which is available at level 11. In one encounter I used a CR16 BBEG custom vampire, plus a Blackguard Dark Paladin Bodyguard (and some other minions) and sunbeam utterly trivialised that fight.

A Fighter with action surge can then carve through the Vampire pitiful AC and hit points like it was butter, especially if the Cleric pops down any radiant based AoE spell to even do a lick of radiant damage. I actually have a Paladin in my group which makes this match-up even more laughable.

Truth be told I haven't ran any vampires as written. I've fought against them and they were incredibly pitiful to beat, even with the DM was trying to make the most of their abilities. Their mobility has no synergy with their attacks, since it's all melee, and their charm is too easily ignored, as charm/fear are some of the most easy debuffs to counter in the game.

I've ran them buffed, with extra necrotic damage, necrotic bows, etc, so they can actually make use of their mobility. They're a much more interesting challenge to a party that way.

Now, CR aside, they are interesting, they have great lore, and their lair effects are just freaky. I am not disputing that.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Yeah, I'm VERY strongly skeptical of the claims regarding vampires being weak. Their DPR is low, yeah. But those charm effects..... Their charm is long-lasting, saving against their charm doesn't confer immunity, and attacks against one charmed party member do not break or even allow extra saves for other charmed party members. They've got good stealth and their regeneration ensures that the vampire will quickly heal up after an hit-and-run. Seems like these things are pretty much made to keep ambushing the party until everyone is charmed. And then proceed to curbstomp the victims one by one.

 

[DaveDash]

Yeah, I'm VERY strongly skeptical of the claims regarding vampires being weak. Their DPR is low, yeah. But those charm effects..... Their charm is long-lasting, saving against their charm doesn't confer immunity, and attacks against one charmed party member do not break or even allow extra saves for other charmed party members. They've got good stealth and their regeneration ensures that the vampire will quickly heal up after an hit-and-run. Seems like these things are pretty much made to keep ambushing the party until everyone is charmed. And then proceed to curbstomp the victims one by one.

See my above post. Charm is trivial to over come and so is their regen. In fact you might as well just discount their regen all together, it's so easy to bypass, which puts their hitpoints on the very low side.

Zaardinar who posts here had his vampire taken out round 1 by an 8th level party. Radiant damage + fighter action surge = good night.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Thanks for the inputs. Helps me design a lot more efficiently.

Still hard to believe that WotC may have started at 71-85 for their CR 1 monsters and none of them kept those average hp, in fact none come close.

However, [MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] 's point that none of the CR 1s were meant to be solos (from the MM) does put the proper perspective on the design process.

So I guess we will see how my CR 1/Solo with 71hp but lower CR attacks does.

I recommend giving any true solo legendary actions and legendary resistance. Otherwise they tend to be fairly boring fights. Reduce it's HP to balance it out somewhat.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

See my above post. Charm is trivial to over come and so is their regen. In fact you might as well just discount their regen all together, it's so easy to bypass, which puts their hitpoints on the very low side.

Zaardinar who posts here had his vampire taken out round 1 by an 8th level party. Radiant damage + fighter action surge = good night.

How many of those anti-charm spells require concentration and have a very short duration again? How many of those other spells have to get through the vampire's legendary resistance (using an exceptionally limited number of high-level spell slots)? The regeneration is significant not for use in combat - because, yes, it's very easy to bypass. It is significant because if the vampire flies away for one or a couple minutes it is suddenly fully healed...after which it is free to return and charm (or re-charm) the PCs it missed again. Once the short-term buffs have worn off.

 

[Jester David]

Too easy or too hard?

A lich is a CR 21 creature. It has 135 hp, which is the hit points of a CR 5 creature. Even it's immunities only push it up to a defensive CR of 8. So unless it has the damage of a CR 32 creature (350-odd damage per round) it's over CRed.
Even with high damage from a 9th level spell and cantrips in its first round it's not dealing close to that damage. A Power World kill pretty much does 99 damage (comparable to a 9th level disintegrate), and a cantrip does 18. It's maximum damage in a single round is in the 150-point range, which is *just* CR 21. So an appropriate CR would be 15. A level 17 or 18 party will take a lich apart, and even far lower level party can shred one if they get the drop on it.