D&D 5E DMG Creating Monster Disparity

[DaveDash]

How many of those anti-charm spells require concentration and have a very short duration again? How many of those other spells have to get through the vampire's legendary resistance (using an exceptionally limited number of high-level spell slots)? The regeneration is significant not for use in combat - because, yes, it's very easy to bypass. It is significant because if the vampire flies away for one or a couple minutes it is suddenly fully healed...after which it is free to return and charm (or re-charm) the PCs it missed again. Once the short-term buffs have worn off.

Again, enlighten me with your experience fighting/running vampires, instead of just making assumptions?

Just for giggles I went and looked at class abilities that deal with charm, there are a lot of them:
Barbarian - Mindless Rage (Frenzy)
Bard - Bardic Inspiration, plus synergy with half-elf.
Cleric - Wisdom save proficiency, plus synergy half-elf, plus numerous spells that can deal with charm.
Druid - Not sure except Wisdom save proficiency.
Fighter - Indomitable.
Monk - Stillness of Mind, Wisdom saving throw proficiency (eventually)
Paladin - Wisdom Saving throw proficiency, Paladin Aura, spells, potentially cleansing touch, aura of devotion (devotion).
Ranger - None I think.
Rogue - Slippery Mind (eventually)
Sorcerer - Tides of Chaos, maybe some spells, bend luck.
Warlock - Wisdom saving throws, beguiling defenses.
Wizard - Wisdom saving throws, some spells.
All classes - Inspiration, which players tend to hoard for these kinds of saves.

When I fought a Vampire I put it in a wall of force, we buffed with with radiant auras and put a couple of spiritual guardians around it. GG.

My group the Cleric has dispel evil and good prepared, and unless I charm her (Half Elf, Wisdom saving throw, not going to happen) then the vampires charm is basically useless.

They simply don't last long enough to do what you say they can do, and they can be shut down quite easily.

 

[pukunui]

But, bottom line...why tell us to use 71-85 and have none of your creature in that ballpark?

I think the idea is that if you just want to come up with something quickly on the fly, look for the CR you want on the table and just use the numbers listed for that CR.

If, however, you've got a bit more time and want to do things more thoroughly, then you use that chart as a guide for the monster's defense and offense and then average the two together, and it doesn't matter if the final result doesn't match up with what's on the chart exactly.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] True, I just threw a seawolf at a party of 5 PCs of 4th level (no magic weapons, 3 casters) along with some thugs/pirates and it wasn't too hard of a fight. I agree with [MENTION=6778085]Chocolategravy[/MENTION] that the circumstances of the combat and how the DM runs the monsters are a big deal in 5e.

 

[Tormyr]

Most casters in the MM suffer from that glass cannon problem. I give higher CR casters hundreds of hitpoints (200+) to compensate, otherwise they're ineffective and dead round 1 or 2.

Even "defensive" creatures though like the Iron Golem don't add up. They come in about CR12 and not CR16.

Dragons are mostly OK but you have the keep them mobile to keep them alive, because they lack th hitpoints to go toe to toe with a party. This makes them a bit awkward because outside their breath weapon, their DPR relies on them getting in close.

I have a Kraken in my game which the party wisely has avoided thus far, but its damage looks very weak for its CR. It could be annoying to fight in water though.

Vampires are VERY weak for their CR. I can't get a CR of 13 for them at all, and they're not great in combat either. I've given them a big DPR boost.

A lot of the "problem" stems from monster damage seems to be based on weapon + size + modifier. According to the DMG at higher levels monsters need to be doing 100+ DPR, and to get close to that you need lots of extra damage dice piled on.

I can only get CR 14 for the iron golem, but the vampires are definitely CR 13.
Effective HP of 330 and AC of 18 makes DCR 18, and effective DPR of 50 and AB of 9 makes OCR 8. Average CR is 13.

It does seem like non magic users swing toward the high DCR side of the spectrum because after a certain point weapon attacks cannot keep up.

 

[Tormyr]

Vampires are INT 17 meaning they're probably WAY smarter than the DM. They can move 120 feet and make 2 charm attacks per turn.

Sorry to nitpick, but I think the vampire only gets 1 charm per turn. The multiattack only works for attacks. While Charm is an action, it is not an attack like Bite or Unarmed Strike.

 

[DaveDash]

I can only get CR 14 for the iron golem, but the vampires are definitely CR 13.
Effective HP of 350 and AC of 18 makes DCR 18, and effective DPR of 50 and AB of 9 makes OCR 8. Average CR is 13.

It does seem like non magic users swing toward the high DCR side of the spectrum because after a certain point weapon attacks cannot keep up.

I get 270EHP...if your party doesn't have radiant damage or sunlight magic.

Plus it's 3 saving throws gives it a EAC of 18, or DCR of 14. What am I missing?

 

[Tormyr]

A lich is a CR 21 creature. It has 135 hp, which is the hit points of a CR 5 creature. Even it's immunities only push it up to a defensive CR of 8. So unless it has the damage of a CR 32 creature (350-odd damage per round) it's over CRed.
Even with high damage from a 9th level spell and cantrips in its first round it's not dealing close to that damage. A Power World kill pretty much does 99 damage (comparable to a 9th level disintegrate), and a cantrip does 18. It's maximum damage in a single round is in the 150-point range, which is *just* CR 21. So an appropriate CR would be 15. A level 17 or 18 party will take a lich apart, and even far lower level party can shred one if they get the drop on it.

Yeah, I got a CR of 17 for the lich. If it had 255 hit points I could see it being CR 21.

 

[Tormyr]

I get 270EHP...if your party doesn't have radiant damage or sunlight magic.

Plus it's 3 saving throws gives it a EAC of 18, or DCR of 14. What am I missing?

Sorry, I wrote it down wrong. It was 330 effective hp.

144 base HP, 36 from damage resistance, 60 from regeneration, 90 from legendary resistance. It looks like you did not include the regeneration?

 

[Tormyr]

Part of the difficulty for me in calculating CR is the difficulty in determining spell damage, specifically spells that save for half or no damage. While breath weapons are supposed to hit 2 creatures no matter what, the spell areas of effect vary widely. I have taken to using the Adjudicating Areas of Effect (DMG 249) to determine how many creatures are hit and assume all make their saving throw. That has been the best fit as I have reverse engineered monsters from the MM.

And I will echo what [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] said. While the CR of creatures used and calculated encounter difficulty do not change, the situation of the encounter can modify the resulting encounter difficulty up or down, sometimes by quite a bit.

 

[DaveDash]

Sorry, I wrote it down wrong. It was 330 effective hp.

144 base HP, 36 from damage resistance, 60 from regeneration, 90 from legendary resistance. It looks like you did not include the regeneration?

Ah, you are right, they do match their CR. I do have an issue with the assumptions around their regen EHP though. IMO it should be 30 * 1.5, which matches my game experience and puts them less than their CR.

Any regen that can be bypassed should be * 1.5, not *3. Or regen simply shouldn't be able to be bypassed at all and the creature then lives up to its CR under all circumstances.

The designers don't care though since they're all about milestone / story driven XP, sp for them having a system that's "close enough" is fine.