D&D 5E DMG Creating Monster Disparity

[SkidAce]

I understand the steps (presumably) listed in the DMG for creating a monster.

What I don't understand is why the chart they suggest using is off from the monsters they provide in the MM.

To create a CR 1 monster, they suggest the creature have 71-85 hp. (pg 274 DMG.)

Which I suppose would be okay...make a decent "solo" for first level characters to fight (creating a couatl type monster for 3 PCs to combat).

But to the disparity...I don't see any of the monsters in the MM at CR 1 with that range of hp. Brown bear 34hp, bugbear 27, and a brass dragon wyrmling has 16hp.


I mainly comprehend that monsters are an art, damage potential, breath weapons etc, can cause the CR to go up or down, etc.


But, bottom line...why tell us to use 71-85 and have none of your creature in that ballpark?

 

[Zaran]

I don't really have an answer for you. I wouldn't hold your breath on waiting for WotC to explain (or fix) things as well.

I guess I would say give them hit points that you think the creature needs up to 85. That definitely would be a be a challenge for a bunch of PCs that do 1d8+3 damage a round.

 

[wedgeski]

I understand the steps (presumably) listed in the DMG for creating a monster.

What I don't understand is why the chart they suggest using is off from the monsters they provide in the MM.

To create a CR 1 monster, they suggest the creature have 71-85 hp. (pg 274 DMG.)

Step 3 in that section says "Adjust stats as you see fit". Give the monster some armour, and you might want to reduce its Hit Points, for example.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Offensive and Defensive CR are calculated separately. And Defensive CR tends to be the lower one in monster design.

There's a few reasons for this, but the basic reason is that most monsters need to be quick to play, hit hard, and go down fast.

"Solos" (legendary) intended to be fought one at a time at max CR, tend to have slightly higher Defensive CR to keep the action economy from becoming too distended, but it is not the principle thing they rely on for that, either.

CR 1 has no real solos in the MM, IIRC, so most of them come in the hit hard / fall quick model. Which is also part of why low-level 5e feels "deadly" - the monster is pumping out damage at a CR or two ahead of where the party is, but its defenses are low.

Among low-CR monsters, I think a poster child for this is the Banshee. It wails, and then basically waits to die if anything survives the wail (and something probably will). Most low-CR monsters follow a slightly less binary version of this.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

Okay, analyzing the brown bear:

HPs average 34, so the table on the DMG page 274 starts it at a 1/8 CR based on that. The AC is 11 which makes that a bit iffy...its less than 13, but not sure I'd adjust the CR down to 0 on that basis...but from the looks of it I think they figured CR at 0 when averaging the offensive and defensive CRs. Offensive damage average for the brown bear is 19 damage per round so the offensive CR is 2. It's attack bonus is +5, so that's 2 higher than the base +3 for a CR 2, so we adjust that to CR 3.

So 1/8 CR + 3 CR /2 is 1.56. Or if they did it by the formula and had defensive CR 0 and offensive CR 3 then the average is 1.5. Either way, they then rounded down to get CR 1.

So.....my suggestion is to remember that the hit point expression is probably not the most immediate and important part of the formula, even if it sets the base CR from which you slide up and down on the defensive side.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

One other observation I wanted to make about the monster design rules, something they maybe don't stress enough, is that when designing the monster you really don't need (or want) to aim for equivalence in the defensive and offensive traits of the monster. A monster with a CR 4 average on defensive but CR 8 on offensive is effectively a CR 6 monster that hits hard and dies quick. A CR 8 defensive and CR 4 offensive is a tough monster that will deal less damage but for a longer period of time due to toughness. Nothing in the rules suggest that you want to make the CR for defense/offense equivalent....and in fact varying these two can let you as DM have some control over just how deadly and lasting you want the monster to be.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I usually just throw together abilities & stats then reverse check to see what CR the system says it is instead of trying to design to fit a specific CR. Much easier than trying to design something within pre-defined parameters.

 

[SkidAce]

Thanks for the inputs. Helps me design a lot more efficiently.

Still hard to believe that WotC may have started at 71-85 for their CR 1 monsters and none of them kept those average hp, in fact none come close.

However, [MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] 's point that none of the CR 1s were meant to be solos (from the MM) does put the proper perspective on the design process.

So I guess we will see how my CR 1/Solo with 71hp but lower CR attacks does.

 

[Chocolategravy]

It's not just HP, but the Attack Bonus. A level 1 and under should be +3 according to the DMG, but all CR 1s and many CR 1/2 are +4 or +5 with the exception of the harpy which has a powerful charm attack.

 

[Tormyr]

I understand the steps (presumably) listed in the DMG for creating a monster.

What I don't understand is why the chart they suggest using is off from the monsters they provide in the MM.

To create a CR 1 monster, they suggest the creature have 71-85 hp. (pg 274 DMG.)

Which I suppose would be okay...make a decent "solo" for first level characters to fight (creating a couatl type monster for 3 PCs to combat).

But to the disparity...I don't see any of the monsters in the MM at CR 1 with that range of hp. Brown bear 34hp, bugbear 27, and a brass dragon wyrmling has 16hp.


I mainly comprehend that monsters are an art, damage potential, breath weapons etc, can cause the CR to go up or down, etc.


But, bottom line...why tell us to use 71-85 and have none of your creature in that ballpark?

The suggested values are for "effective" HP, AC, DPR, and AB. This does not necessarily line up with what is printed in a stat block. CR is also the average of the defensive and offensive CRs. Other traits will affect the effective HP, AC, DPR, and AB as well.

The Brown Bear: HP 34 starts at DCR 1/8, AC 11 brings that to DCR 0. DPR 19 starts OCR at 2, AB of +5 brings that to OCR of 3. Average of 0 and 3 is 1.5. They rounded down to 1.
The Bugbear: HP 27 starts at DCR 1/8, AC 16 brings that up to DCR 1/4. Brute adds 7 to first round of damage. Average DPR of 13.33 starts OCR at 1 and AB of +4 leaves that unchanged. Average is.625, and it was rounded up to 1.

So what it comes to is that everything at CR 1 generally causes similar levels of grief for the party, but they may go about it differently.

Regarding solos, few of the monsters outside of legendary creatures are actually good at being solos. This is primarily because the party can very effectively gang up on most single monsters and unload on it. Additionally, while it may seem that a monster of the same CR as the level of a 4 PC party would make a good solo, in reality, it is only a medium encounter. Generally, I have found that most people expect a solo encounter to be more difficult. To do that the CR of the monster must be higher.

The legendary monsters may look great, but they are not really any more difficult, and therefore no more appropriate to be a solo, than another monster of the same CR. The legendary monster generally has lower hp and other stats when compared to a monster of the same CR because that is how it "pays" for its legendary resistance and legendary actions.

Having run a few test encounters against a creature with the stats from the table in the DMG, the encounter for a 4 PC on 1 monster fight lasts about the same amount of time (3 rounds) as another similar CR monster from the MM. The HP may look great, but the PCs motor through it quickly. The DMG table can be used as quick stats for a monster, but it is better used as the starting point for figuring out the CR of a monster that is being made.

In the end, hp is the most easily modified of the four CR stats and is therefore used to balance the monster. Hard hitting monsters get lower hp, and monsters that have resistance, saving throws, or legendary resistance get less hp as well.

If you have not already, you might like to take a look at the Monster CR Calculator I put together. It lets you plug in a monsters stats by going through the steps listed in the DMG and see what CR it ends up with. http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=1189