reapersaurus said:
That analysis was interesting, but as just noted above, it completely missed the point.This statement incredibly overlooks the combat domination of spells.
How can you wave your hand and ignore all the combat-applicable spells whiuch completely turns the tide of comparison fully into the EK's court?
What combat domination of spells are you talking about? My analysis is starting from the position that fighting classes are balanced with spellcasting classes as single-classed characters. (This is verified in my experience, BTW--one can talk about how sorcerors with 22 charisma's dominate combats but raging bull's strengthed 22 base strength half-orc barbarians with spiked chains/Duoms and Great Cleave also quite regularly finish entire legions of bad guys in a single charge action (especially when wearing Rhino Hide armor). It's quite possible to dominate the game with any class (except maybe 3.0 bard) if the card's land right and that's what you want to do.)
If an Eldritch Knight is going to outshine the single-classed fighter by casting damaging or Save or Die spells, then the single classed wizard (with spells 1 to 2 levels higher, DCs probably 2 to 4 points higher, and 4-8 more levels for purposes of beating SR) is going to make the single-classed fighter look like a street lamp in comparison to the sun (instead of the moon of the EK). However, IME, that doesn't happen regularly. And only a stupid Eldritch Knight would try it. Someone who wants to dominate the battlefield with spells needs to have more spellcaster levels than an Eldritch Knight. They also don't need fighter profieciencies or BAB (the only things an EK really has over a single classed wizard).
If you're talking about the application of personal buff spells that increase the EK's combat (ranged or melee) ability, then you need to specify which ones you're talking about. Since most of them can be cast on other people (and are cast on the single-classed fighter anyway in a party) the real benefits are the personal range spells. And, in the EK's case, that's True Strike (not nearly as impressive (even combined with Blink, Expert Tactician and Power Attack) as most people think except in the case of really high ACs) Shield (not too impressive anymore), Alter Self (a new addition to the list with it's Natural Armor application), False Life (doesn't come close to evening the HP difference between the EK and the single-class fighter, Mirror Image, Blink, Fire Shield (not as useful as you might think since it does no good unless you get hit and the EK can't stand getting hit much), Tenser's Transformation (makes up for the EK's lost BAB and hp but not the lack of feats (especially WS, GWF, GWS, disparate stats (the EK probably already has +4 str and dex items--and the single class fighter almost certainly does--by the time he can cast Transformation), Moment of Prescience (nice but hardly earthshattering), and Foresight. Now they're all useful spells, and if the EK knows that he can afford to blow all his prepped spells in a single battle, has advance warning of the battle (sufficiently reliable to pre-cast min/level spells) and time to cast all of the ones he wants, I'll admit that the EK is probably better at fighting than the fighter is. OTOH, I don't think that situation has ever occurred for any of my characters and there's no reason to suspect it's going to start happening soon. If the EK has to cast more than 1 or possibly 2 of those spells in combat, the "combat domination" turns into "mopping up the bad guys after the rest of the party wins the battle."
In realistic situations, the EK will spend most of his time being almost as effective as the single-classed fighter...after he's cast his buff spells.
Originally posted by Spunedagr Looks like I sparked some (non-inflamatory) discussion. Yay! Nice analysis there.
Based on all that mathematical wizardry, I'll agree now that the PrC is not any more powerful than the alternatives, but it's still dull as a bowl of shredded wheat.
Assuming that this is meant to be a springboard for a DM to make up his own "tastier" prestige classes, what could be done to season it up a bit?[/b]
Well, I'm not certain it's the kind of class that ought to be spiced up. Right now, it serves to make the fighter/wizard concept viable--to make it more specific would be to make effective fighter/wizards more specific and less diverse.
That said, to transform it into a specific order of fighter/wizards, you should probably start by changing the prerequisites. Let's say you want to turn it into the Glaives of Azerian--a militant order of glaive-wielding wizards devoted to Heironeous drawn from the nobility of the isle of Azerian.
So you add some prereqs:
-Noble birth (or you might just say "most of them are noble")
-Weapon Focus: Glaive
-Combat Reflexes
-5 ranks Knowledge: nobility and Royalty
-5 ranks Knowledge: religion
None of those are particularly difficult for the characters who would otherwise become Eldritch Knights but they do serve to narrow the interest pool. Nonreach fighters need not apply.
Then you'd change the class skills by adding Knowledge: Religion. You might add Knowledge: the planes as well if they are known to be demon-hunters.
Now, you could leave the class alone after that but it would still look rather bland in terms of abilities. At this point you'd have to decide whether or not you're willing to make the class more powerful. And if so, how much more powerful.
Adding narrow circumstance bonusses wouldn't increase the power too much.
At level 1, a +2 circumstance bonus to diplomacy checks with the clergy of Heironeous and the nobility of Azerian.
At level 3, a +2 circumstance bonus to Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, and Survival (tracking) checks against evil outsiders.
At level 5, a +1 unnamed bonus to hit evil outsiders.
At level 7, a +1 unnamed bonus to damage.
At level 9, the attack bonus increases to +2
At level 10, the damage bonus increases to +2
So basically, they got favored enemy evil outsider over 8 levels. Not too powerful but more interesting.
If you were willing to give them more power, you could add other powers instead. (If you went this route, you might want to make the order ranger/wizards and make Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider and the ability to cast Magic Circle Against Evil prereqs).
At level 1, their offering (traditionally their primary weapon) for joining the order is transformed into a cold iron glaive with the same enhancements as before.
At level 3, they can Detect Evil 1/day as a SLA (and once more/2 levels after that).
At level 5, the order adds Evil Outsider Bane to the primary weapon free of charge; he also gets a +2 Holy bonus to saves against the SLAs of evil outsiders.
At level 7, the Glaive of Azerian gains an aura of good and law and any weapon he wields counts as whatever it needs to penetrate the DR of evil outsiders (silver, iron, good, lawful, chaotic, and/or adamantium--depending upon the circumstance). This ability has no effect when he wields his weapon against any creature that is not an evil outsider.
At level 9, he becomes immune to mind-effecting abiliities of evil outsiders--including Blasphemy.
At level 10, he can activate a Holy Aura 1/day as a free action.
