DMG - Eldritch Knight

[Beholder Bob]

Well, here is my stab at making the EK more interesting...
I'd add a few requirements, but that should certainly be campaign driven - to join the order, weapon style desired, etc. Roughly 3-4 feats and 4-8 ranks in 2-3 skills.

1) Cut Spell 1/day – as dispel magic (with you making an attack roll with an enchanted weapon as your dispel roll), only against a spell targeting you. Double the enchanted weapon’s total “+” (a flaming +1 weapon is +2 for this purpose) is the maximum level spell that can be so effected. As a readied action, this can be used to counter a spell as it is cast at you, or as a regular action to disrupt an ongoing spell.

2) Arcane dodge I – as uncanny dodge (and its stepping up of power), but only against a magical effect

3) +2 concentration roll when rolling due to damage

4) Cut spell 2/day

5) Arcane Strike 1/day – as dispel magic, but a free action as part of an attack, with the dispel targeting a single spell or effect on the target struck as part of the martial attack. If the melee attack misses, the effect of the Arcane Strike is lost as well.

6) Arcane Dodge II

7) When striking a creature, weapons used count as 1 step higher (a +2 sword counts as +3) for penetrating damage reduction and sundering (but not to resist sundering). This does not increase the bonus to hit or damage.

8) Cut Spell 3/day

9) Spell Strike – can cast a spell of 3rd level or lower and make a single attack as a full round action. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action or less.

10) Arcane Dodge III, Arcane Strike 2/day

 

[Beholder Bob]

Oops - forgot 1 thing. Drop the base attack to 3/4 step (i.e. cleric)
Otherwise, a bit too much.

 

[LokiDR]

Multiclassing is a problem. An even up fighter/wizard just doesn't cut the mustard, I think we can all agree. So why don't we go to a classless system? I haven't seen that any d20 materials, has anyone else? There has to be better fix than a PrC for every multiclassing option. This would be better in all respects.

Ok, so for money or just ease of access, the designers went with PrC as the multiclass fix. There are two kinds of fixes to multiclassing via PrC: the Arcane Trickster and the Eldritch Knight. One has flavor and accomplishes its job. The other is boring and accomplishes its job. Now, which belongs in the core rules? Are PrC supposed to be boring? The majority aren't. They are meant to be something to work up to and accomplish. The core rules have always been the default setting as well as rules.

For all of you who want setting out the rules, I also assume you want any spell named after a person out. No organizations at all. No gods listed in the core rules. No predefined roles for any class. You just want tables and you will add what you want to that.

I'm sorry, but that wouldn't be D&D. The game wouldn't be playable with the core rules. D&D already forces you to buy 3 books to most other games 1. Adding a "forced" setting book on top of that for a complete game is not a good idea. Generic D&D should have a flavor of its own, and you can rip that to shreads from there.

 

[drnuncheon]

Multiclassing is a problem. An even up fighter/wizard just doesn't cut the mustard, I think we can all agree. So why don't we go to a classless system? I haven't seen that any d20 materials, has anyone else?

Call of Cthulhu is essentially classless. I think that one of the superhero systems - Mutants & Masterminds, maybe? - is classless as well.

But if I were going to go classless, I wouldn't bother with d20 - I'd use GURPS or HERO, which were designed to be classless from the ground up.

J

 

[Spatzimaus]

Here's the problem, as I see it. When a PrC gives "+1 spellcasting level" or someone takes a level of Sorcerer/Wizard/etc, they get all of the following:
1> More known spells (Sorcerer/Bard only)
2> More spells per day
3> Access to a higher level of spells (half the time, anyway)
4> +1 caster level for spell effects/ranges/durations
5> +1 versus SR

When they take a level of any other class, they get none of these. The fighter types get a bit more HP, BAB, and saves when they mix in caster levels, but the reverse gives nothing. It's an all-or-nothing situation; how many PrCs have you ever seen that give some of the above but not the others? Mystic, some psionic PrCs, that's about it. When I want to multiclass away from a caster class, I need a stopgap class like Eldritch Knight just to keep from being shafted.

Solutions? Well, on the House Rules board there have been a lot of suggestions. My favorite was to switch to a more skill-based system. Replace SR checks with Spellcraft checks. Add two new skills (let's call them Focus and Channeling): one that replaces caster level for effects, one that replaces class level for spells/day (with some tweaking to the formulae). You'd need to up the pure casters' skill points to 4+INT, of course. The beauty of this is that a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 can still be casting as many spells per day as a Wizard 20, with the same "caster level", he'll just be lacking in other ways and it'll cost him a LOT of his skill points. A Fighter 19/Wizard 1, on the other hand, wouldn't be able to do this, so it's not as abuseable.

 

[Eolin]

Spatzimaus, that's really interesting, i may have to go look through the house rules forum. What's the name of the thread?

Also, does that allow you to do the sorcerer/wizard distinction? Like, would it work if everytime yopu put points in to say if you were getting spells as a wizard or as a sorcerer?

So, at each level you could claim if you were learning them like a wizard, or having them develop as a sorcerer? That about what you had in mind?

Eolin, still new around here.

 

[LokiDR]

Here's the problem, as I see it. When a PrC gives "+1 spellcasting level" or someone takes a level of Sorcerer/Wizard/etc, they get all of the following:
1> More known spells (Sorcerer/Bard only)
2> More spells per day
3> Access to a higher level of spells (half the time, anyway)
4> +1 caster level for spell effects/ranges/durations
5> +1 versus SR

I agree completely and believe more designers should understand this distinction. Then we might get something like a punch-mage PrC, only giving 1/2 spellcasting but on the other levels giving +2 spellcaster level for level based effects and some other stuff. I would be more interesting than all or nothing spellcasting levels.

Solutions? Well, on the House Rules board there have been a lot of suggestions. My favorite was to switch to a more skill-based system. Replace SR checks with Spellcraft checks. Add two new skills (let's call them Focus and Channeling): one that replaces caster level for effects, one that replaces class level for spells/day (with some tweaking to the formulae). You'd need to up the pure casters' skill points to 4+INT, of course. The beauty of this is that a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 can still be casting as many spells per day as a Wizard 20, with the same "caster level", he'll just be lacking in other ways and it'll cost him a LOT of his skill points. A Fighter 19/Wizard 1, on the other hand, wouldn't be able to do this, so it's not as abuseable.

That doesn't quite pan out. A fighter can take a few levels of wizard in later levels and get huge spellcasting benifits, so much so that another level of fighter would almost look foolish. The d20 skill system is weak in general. That is why I believe attacks and saves aren't skills, they are too important.

 

[Spatula]

Here's the problem, as I see it. When a PrC gives "+1 spellcasting level" or someone takes a level of Sorcerer/Wizard/etc, they get all of the following:
1> More known spells (Sorcerer/Bard only)

Wizards also get more known spells (as do divine casters if they've reached a new level of spells, of course).

Solutions? Well, on the House Rules board there have been a lot of suggestions. My favorite was to switch to a more skill-based system. Replace SR checks with Spellcraft checks. Add two new skills (let's call them Focus and Channeling): one that replaces caster level for effects, one that replaces class level for spells/day (with some tweaking to the formulae). You'd need to up the pure casters' skill points to 4+INT, of course. The beauty of this is that a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 can still be casting as many spells per day as a Wizard 20, with the same "caster level", he'll just be lacking in other ways and it'll cost him a LOT of his skill points. A Fighter 19/Wizard 1, on the other hand, wouldn't be able to do this, so it's not as abuseable.

He won't? He's part-wizard, isn't he? High INT and all that. And what about the rogue 19/wiz 1? I'm missing what one gets out of taking more than a single level of spellcaster class with this system.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Originally posted by Eolin
Spatzimaus, that's really interesting, i may have to go look through the house rules forum. What's the name of the thread?

Yeesh, it was a really long time ago. I don't even remember if it was on this board or an older version. Parts of it have been reposted in other threads, like this, but you're probably better off coming up with your own. I suppose we could start a thread in the House Rules forum to resurrect the issue, though.

Also, does that allow you to do the sorcerer/wizard distinction? Like, would it work if everytime yopu put points in to say if you were getting spells as a wizard or as a sorcerer?

You'd have to make each class use a separate subskill of both, so that Focus (Wizard) and Focus (Cleric) are two separate skills, just like Knowledge skills are separate. At least this way, the Mystic Theurge could have both sets as class skills.
In fact, someone even suggested using Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Nature), and Knowledge (Religion) to determine "known" spells in a similar way, so you could make it even more skill-based. It may sound trivial, but that's a LOT of skills you need to keep maxxed to mimic the existing classes' abilities, and there just aren't enough skill points to go around.

LokiDR:
Then we might get something like a punch-mage PrC, only giving 1/2 spellcasting but on the other levels giving +2 spellcaster level for level based effects and some other stuff. I would be more interesting than all or nothing spellcasting levels

IMC we made a 5-level Artificer prestige class for casters. At each level it gave a smaller number of known spells, +1 to caster level, but no extra spells/day. Effectively it gave less spellcasting ability, to make up for the extra item-related abilities you gained, but without resorting to "+1 spellcasting level" at half the levels.
I wish more PrCs were designed that way, because it'd really make it a lot more entertaining to shop for caster PrCs, but that's just not how 3E worked.

As for the other part of your post, just taking a few levels wouldn't cut it. You'd need to keep four skills up: Concentration, Channeling, Focus, Spellcraft. That's 4 skill points to mimic one spellcasting level, not counting other skills like Scry and Knowledge (Arcana). Even if your INT was an 18 and Wizards got 4+INT skill points, a Fighter 16/Wizard 4 would only have the spells/day and caster level of a 8th-level Wizard, and still couldn't cast anything above a 2nd-level spell. That's why I explicitly said spells/day, NOT known spells; I suppose I should have added the part where you can't scribe a spell above your ability, but I'm doing this from memory. You'd have a bunch of slots up to 4th level, but you'd be filling them with metamagicked versions of lower spells.
Sure, you could ignore Spellcraft and Concentration to raise Channeling and Focus as quickly as possible, but that'll hurt you in other ways.

End result: you'd have a ton of low-level spells unless you spent more class levels on Wizard or bought a LOT of cross-class ranks. Having a lot of 1st and 2nd-level spells is nice, but it's no better than a Rogue using UMD on wands. You'd practically have to be an even-split multiclasser to approach your full potential, which is exactly the sort of situation the Eldritch Knight was made for in the first place.

Actually, part of the reason the Channeling skill as written seems flaky is that it was designed for more of a drain-based system, which doesn't translate over well into a straight slot-based 3E class. But that's an entirely different topic.

Yes, it's bad to let things like BAB and saves be skill-based since every class would have them as class skills and such. It'd be too easy to keep them all maxxed. But, it's not so bad when only one class has each as a class skill, like what I mentioned above, and these are things that right now are ALWAYS maxxed.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Originally posted by Spatula
Wizards also get more known spells (as do divine casters if they've reached a new level of spells, of course).

True, but the two free Wizard spells are a minor enough gain that I didn't want to confuse them with the extra known spells Bards and Sorcerers get. As for the Divine casters, to me that's more rolled into the "access to higher spells" one I put as #3, but that's debatable.

He won't? He's part-wizard, isn't he? High INT and all that. And what about the rogue 19/wiz 1?

See the above post for why a high INT won't save you. I wasn't too clear when I first said it since I was just trying to give a quickie summary, but Channeling only determines spells/day, NOT "spells known" or "access to higher spells". A Rogue 19/Wiz 1 would still only have access to first-level spells, no matter how many skill points he spends raising Channeling. In fact, he'd be better off dropping the Wiz level and using Use Magic Device for everything.

When I get home tonight I think I'll move this discussion over to House Rules. Any objections?