Dmg II

[Poster Bard]

More 1e DMG style useful tables and appedices would be nice. The properties of herbs, the reputed magical powers of gems, costs for pelts and tapestries, potion descriptions, the gambling appendix. These are useful.

I see tables get slammed in reviews a lot although I like them most of the time.

 

[S'mon]

I see tables get slammed in reviews a lot although I like them most of the time.

Books that are nothing but tables (in large type) suck. Tables as an addition to text is good, though. I still use my 1e MM2 encounter tables a lot, since WoTC couldn't be arsed to put any in the 3e DMG.

(If I seem frazzled this morning; the BBC are on strike and The Today Program is not on Radio 4! This is roughly equivalent to... hm.... there really isn't one. It's very traumatic, anyway. At first I thought the Russians had invaded, then I remembered it wasn't 1985 anymore).

 

[philreed]

Books that are nothing but tables (in large type) suck.

What's a list of such books?

 

[glass]

Best. Typo. EVAR.

Especially in a thread that has already mentioned wet wenches!

EDIT: Too late.


glass.

 

[Mercule]

How often do you see those archetypes in the same setting as knights in heavy armour?

That's right: you don't. Or, at least, they aren't expected to be on the same level as the knights.

In any setting that has both elves and dwarves. IMO, elves can't pull off the heavy-armor archetype very well. They almost need to have a swashbuckler class. Also, a dwarven swashbuckler is absurd. They need to be tin cans. Yes, it is possible to see either, in the right game, but it's not particularly true-to-form.

Elven knights wear mithral chain of some sort -- light fighters with quick weapons and a distinct style. Dwarven wear adamantine plate with big axes. They are at least equals. Tolkien, arguably, had the elves as superior fighters.

Having swashbucklers along with heavy fighters even happened in the real world. France and Italy had swashbucklers, while most of Germany and Eastern Europe were still using plating and big weapons.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Books that are nothing but tables (in large type) suck. Tables as an addition to text is good, though. I still use my 1e MM2 encounter tables a lot, since WoTC couldn't be arsed to put any in the 3e DMG.

Yes, that's obvious. But having useful tables like those is well...useful!

 

[Odhanan]

I will certainly get this book. We've got lots of feats, PrCs, classes, feats... err. I repeat myself? Okay. A lot of stuff to customize characters, let's say. Then, we've got the monster series (Draconomicon, Libris M, Lords of M, Monster manuals etc). It was about time to get something for DMs other than settings.

Problem is, Wizards just publishes basic core materials. When I say "basic", I don't mean "too simple". I mean too conventional. There are good products, but no product makes me look at the design ideas and say "WOW", with perhaps Unearthed Arcana as the sole exception in a long while (I love Eberron, but I don't put it in the "core products" category of D&D).

We'll see which tendency follows the DMG II.

 

[woodelf]

How often do you see those archetypes in the same setting as knights in heavy armour?

That's right: you don't. Or, at least, they aren't expected to be on the same level as the knights.

Oh, about as often as you see druids, bards, and shaolin monks in the same setting as knights in heavy armor.

No, they don't all go together. Neither do the classes they did give us. But they're fairly general fantasy archetypes, certainly as common as street thugs and warrior priests. It's not a case of needing an infinite palette of archetypes to cover all of fantasy: you need, roughly, a dozen, if drawn broadly, a score if narrower, IMHO [Arcana Unearthed, frex, comes close to managing it in 11 classes].

D&D3E has chosen to support the built-up D&D genre, rather than a broader high-fantasy and/or sword-n-sorcery genre, and this has tailored the classes chosen, separating some fairly close archetypes into separate classes, enshrining some rather uncommon archetypes into the core classes, and completely missing some other common archetypes. There's a whole spread of thieves and con artists that the new system, with its division of class abilities, feats, and skills, could've been set up to handle, but isn't: the cat burglar who's point of pride is stealth and would never use violence; the non-magical, non-fighting con artist; the court manipulator/power-behind-the-throne. I'll let the BAB/hp thing slide--such is the nature of D&D. But simply replacing a rogue's sneak attack with a shot at a special ability list (which included sneak attack), frex, would address many of the missing archetypes. Some tweaks to the bard class could set it up to handle a bunch of "missing roles", too, while still covering the roles it currently does (or at least covering them with an easy multiclass combination).

 

[Ranger REG]

D&D3E has chosen to support the built-up D&D genre, rather than a broader high-fantasy and/or sword-n-sorcery genre, and this has tailored the classes chosen, separating some fairly close archetypes into separate classes, enshrining some rather uncommon archetypes into the core classes, and completely missing some other common archetypes. There's a whole spread of thieves and con artists that the new system, with its division of class abilities, feats, and skills, could've been set up to handle, but isn't: the cat burglar who's point of pride is stealth and would never use violence; the non-magical, non-fighting con artist; the court manipulator/power-behind-the-throne. I'll let the BAB/hp thing slide--such is the nature of D&D. But simply replacing a rogue's sneak attack with a shot at a special ability list (which included sneak attack), frex, would address many of the missing archetypes. Some tweaks to the bard class could set it up to handle a bunch of "missing roles", too, while still covering the roles it currently does (or at least covering them with an easy multiclass combination).

So, do you want that in the core game book or in add-on supplements?

While I admit those are good ideas -- in the form of substitution levels, class variants, or create a new class from the ground up -- I still don't see how limiting or flawed 3e/d20 is. Maybe it will cover in the DMG II. If not, then I still have the three Dragon magazine issues that introduce the class variant concept.

 

[The_Universe]

Oh, about as often as you see druids, bards, and shaolin monks in the same setting as knights in heavy armor.

No, they don't all go together. Neither do the classes they did give us. But they're fairly general fantasy archetypes, certainly as common as street thugs and warrior priests. It's not a case of needing an infinite palette of archetypes to cover all of fantasy: you need, roughly, a dozen, if drawn broadly, a score if narrower, IMHO [Arcana Unearthed, frex, comes close to managing it in 11 classes].

D&D3E has chosen to support the built-up D&D genre, rather than a broader high-fantasy and/or sword-n-sorcery genre, and this has tailored the classes chosen, separating some fairly close archetypes into separate classes, enshrining some rather uncommon archetypes into the core classes, and completely missing some other common archetypes. There's a whole spread of thieves and con artists that the new system, with its division of class abilities, feats, and skills, could've been set up to handle, but isn't: the cat burglar who's point of pride is stealth and would never use violence; the non-magical, non-fighting con artist; the court manipulator/power-behind-the-throne. I'll let the BAB/hp thing slide--such is the nature of D&D. But simply replacing a rogue's sneak attack with a shot at a special ability list (which included sneak attack), frex, would address many of the missing archetypes. Some tweaks to the bard class could set it up to handle a bunch of "missing roles", too, while still covering the roles it currently does (or at least covering them with an easy multiclass combination).

Woodelf, I'd like you to meet D20 Modern and Grim Tales. Grim Tales and D20 Modern? This is Woodelf. I have a feeling you'll all be great friends, but I'll leave you to get acquainted.