DMG to include a "starter town".

[Plane Sailing]

6 months after the book comes out this will just be X pages that they flip past every time without even thinking about it.

Thing is, this could be true for 60-90% of the 3e DMG too, right? How much of the DMG gets flipped past without thinking about it right now, eh? Here is the 3.5e table of contents as a reminder

Introduction

Chapter 1: Running the Game
What is a DM
Style of Play
Example of Play
Running a Game Session

Chapter 2: Using the Rules
More Movement Rules
Movement and the Grid
Moving in Three Dimensions
Evasion and Pursuit
Moving Around in Squares
Bonus Types
Combat
Line of Sight
Starting an Encounter
New Combatants
Keeping Things Moving
Combat Actions
Attack Rolls
Damage
Effect of Weapon Size
Splash Weapons
Area Spells
Big and Little Creatures in Combat
Skill and Ability Checks
Saving Throws
Adjudicating Magic
Describing Spell Effects
Handling Divinations
Creating New Spells
Rewards
Experience Awards
Story Awards
Character Death
Making a New Character

Chapter 3: Adventures
Motivation
Structure
Site-Based Adventures
The End (?)
Encounters
Tailored or Status Quo
Challenge Ratings and Encounter Levels
Difficulty
Tougher Monsters
Location
Rewards and Behavior
Treasure
Bringing Adventures Together
Between Adventures
The Dungeon
Dungeon Terrain
Walls
Doors
Rooms
Corridors
Miscellaneous Features
Cave-Ins and Collapses
Illumination
Traps
Elements of a Trap
Sample Traps
Designing a Trap
Dungeon Ecology
Dungeon Animals
Wandering Monsters
Random Dungeons
Dungeon Level
The Map and the Key
Random Dungeon Encounters
A Sample Adventure
Statistics Blocks
Wilderness Adventures
Getting Lost
Forest Terrain
Marsh Terrain
Hills Terrain
Mountain Terrain
Desert Terrain
Plains Terrain
Aquatic Terrain
Underwater Combat
Weather
Random Wilderness Encounters
Urban Adventures
Weapon and Spell Restrictions
Urban Features
Urban Encounters

Chapter 4: Nonplayer Characters
Everyone in the World
NPC Classes
Adept
Aristocrat
Commoner
Expert
Warrior
NPC Statistics
NPC Attitudes
Fleshing Out NPCs

Chapter 5: Campaigns
Establishing a Campaign
Maintaining a Campaign
Characters and the World Around Them
War and Other Calamities
Other Campaign Issues
World-Building
Building a Different World
Adventuring on Other Planes
Plane Descriptions
Creating a Cosmology

Chapter 6: Characters
Ability Scores
Races
Subraces
Modifying a Common Race
Changes through Addition and Subtraction
Class/Race Restrictions
New Races
Monsters as Races
Classes
Modifying Character Classes
Creating New Classes
Prestige Classes
Arcane Archer
Arcane Trickster
Archmage
Assassin
Blackguard
Dragon Disciple
Duelist
Dwarven Defender
Eldritch Knight
Hierophant
Horizon Walker
Loremaster
Mystic Theurge
Red Wizard
Shadowdancer
Thaumaturgist
How PCs Improve
Learning Skills and Feats
Learning New Spells
Gaining Class Benefits
General Downtime
Gaining Fixed Hit Points
Creating PCs above 1st Level
Special Cohorts
Familiars
Mounts
Animal Companions
Epic Characters

Chapter 7: Magic Items
Handling Magic Items
Magic Item Descriptions
Armor
Weapons
Potions and Oils
Rings
Rods
Scrolls
Staffs
Wands
Wondrous Items
Intelligent Items
Cursed Items
Artifacts
Creating Magic Items
Masterwork Items
Special Materials

Chapter 8: Glossary
Special Abilities
Condition Summary
The Environment

Visual Aids

 

[BryonD]

Thing is, this could be true for 60-90% of the 3e DMG too, right? How much of the DMG gets flipped past without thinking about it right now, eh? Here is the 3.5e table of contents as a reminder

Yes. Certainly very true.

They can either learn from that and improve or expand the mistakes.

 

[delericho]

Well now we learn that there will be a beginners set in Fall 2008. So it seems WotC is making a stupid business move.

Perhaps. I don't think this "Basic Set" will sell terribly well. I might be wrong about that.

But I'll just make the simple prediction that for the majority of people who like the idea, 6 months after the book comes out this will just be X pages that they flip past every time without even thinking about it.

The DMG will no doubt include reams of advice on how to prepare adventures, design campaigns, and run the game. All of these are things that really should be there. After all, what is the DMG if not a guide to DMs on how to run the game?

And yet, six months after the book comes out, those will just be Y, Z and T pages that people flip past every time without even thinking about it.

But then, let's consider the 3.5e DMG for a moment. How much of that really gets used by people on a regular basis? I suspect not too much - there's the XP chart, the Wealth-by-Level guidelines, the traps, and the magic items (although even there, the ones that get used over and over have long since been memorised). Oh, and seven Prestige Classes. That's about 100 pages out of a 300 page book.

The book also contains advice on adventure design (read once), the sample cosmology (read once, and not used since... and I actually use the Great Wheel), the Epic Level rules (read once... when they were in the Epic Level Handbook). I'm sure there's more there, but I don't use it. And let's not get started on the waste of paper that was the 2nd Edition DMG!

Hell, let's look at the PHB. This is the core rulebook for the game, but when was the last time you really used the sections on time and movement, encumberance and light? Or did you read these once, memorise the content, and then flip past them every time? Then there are all the spells. Not only do most casters use the same small subset of the spells, but many many groups never go above 12th level. So, really, what's the point of the spells of 7th, 8th and 9th level? Aren't they just wasted pages?

The point is, every RPG book (and especially the core rules of a new edition of the game) is going to have some number of pages that are rendered unnecessary after a very short time playing the game. And not everything can be of equal utility to every group. So, where something is of significant utility to a significant portion of gamers (specifically, new DMs), why not include it?

But I am saying that this is a symptom of the disease that has a notable number of people concerned.

Actually, it's a symptom of a cure to a much more malignant disease. The simple fact is that the existing player base will dwindle in time, by simple attrition if for no other reason. D&D must attract new players if it is to survive.

D&D as it stands has a level of complexity that is fine (some might say ideal) for experienced gamers. And it's a fairly easy game to teach - the concepts are intuitive and the gameplay fun. But if you don't have an experienced player to teach you, and an experienced DM to run the game for you, it is a nightmare to learn. If you give a set of the core rulebooks to a group of teenagers (even a group who are keen to play) and leave them for six months, you won't get six players out of it - you'll get a set of ignored core rulebooks as they play Magic, Warhammer or WoW instead.

 

[Maggan]

Perhaps. I don't think this "Basic Set" will sell terribly well. I might be wrong about that.

I think that the Basic Set will sell at least adequately, meeting WotC expectations. They've already done two Basic Sets, so presumably those met with some success, to warrant another set for 4e.

Whether it'll sell terribly well is another point, for sure. I'm sure it'll sell better than what many gamers are expecting from the set.

/M

 

[Piratecat]

The previous argument permeating this thread has died down, which is great, but it's worth noting that the hijack is inappropriate. When you start arguing back and forth across the keyboard with one person, it's probably a pretty good guess that no one else in the thread cares and it's time to walk away from the keyboard for a while.

Thank you for working to get the thread back on track.

 

[delericho]

I think that the Basic Set will sell at least adequately, meeting WotC expectations. They've already done two Basic Sets, so presumably those met with some success, to warrant another set for 4e.

Quite possibly. I obviously have no crystal ball, nor am I privvy to the decision making process at WotC (or to the sales data for the previous sets).

However, the impression I have generally gotten from such basic sets, going back as far as the 'Black Box' from the waning days of BD&D (the successor to the 'Red Box' with which I came in), is that they seem to be something that TSR/WotC feel that they 'have to have', but without necessarily knowing how best to do them 'right'.

Of course, the trick with a Basic Set is also not so much to sell well in its own right, as it is to transition non-gamers to the 'full' version of the game.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

But we can not keep ignoring the big picture.
It seems that hand holding is showing to be a major driving force of 4E design.
And that could very easily drive a lot of the established base away.
From talk I hear, I'm far from the only person who feels that he may be part of the "fired" old guard.

D00d, 4E is driving quite a few of the old guard away.
I'm one of the cats that feels like he's being given his walking papers with 4E,
but when I found D&D there was NO ONE for me to learn from. I found a beat up copy of
Keep on the Borderlands at friends house at the age of 12. Turns out that it belonged to his older brother who had tried D&D and didn't like it.

I had to figure out D&D from the module and then somehow much later I got my hands on the red box. Still there were no examples for me to learn from other than the books. So while I'm not a fan of 4E, I'm actually a fan of getting more and more people into the hobby and if putting a sample town into the DM's Guide can help a new DM's job easier then I'm all for it. Being a DM can be and lot of the time is a thankless job, but someone has to do it. It's already hard enough to find decent players that are consistent, who you get along with and whose play style meshes with your own. WOTC should be making DM'ing easier to do for newbies, not harder.

 

[TerraDave]

Another veteran DM who likes the idea of a detailed town.

When I was a new DM, I had the time and inclination to work on all those details.

Now, as a veteran DM, not so much. Also, as a veteran DM, I know how to use those details while customizing and recycling for my own purposes. Its amazing how far you can go with some name changes and light remapping (which will be facilitated by having electronic access to the book).

But, Hommlet? I do have my Hommlet, a hybrid from 1st and 3rd ed sources and set where it belongs-Albion (people talk about Oerth, but if there was ever a village for fantasy England, that was it). I guess I wouldn't mind a 4th ed update, but somewhere new could be nice.

 

[Lord Xtheth]

I smell somthing fishy...

R&D: "Ummm... what the heck can we do to fill up the last 10 pages of this 329 page book we promiced our player base?"

CEO: "I don't know? Fill it with somthing you already made... Maybe that playtest town you've been using."

R&D: "Great idea boss!"

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Obviously I completely disagree.

The game has worked without this baby treatment for a very long time. It doesn't need to go there now.

It is only your addition of the word "requiring" that makes another product a stupid idea. Or are you suggesting that 3E was stupid for not including this? Are you predicting that 4E sales will blow out 3E because of this?

Offering an optional starter supplement is a great idea. Wasting page count in a book that should be used for 5+ years on a topic that only really applies to a new DM for maybe 6 months max (again, if he's still "new" after this time then the hand holding DMG has failed miserably at its goal) is bad business.

Or is 4E just intended to be a beginner game?

You know, for the record, I and most of the gamers I know only use the DMG for the magic item tables, and sometimes for the underwater combat rules. Both of these are in the online SRD, so I haven't brought my DMG to a game in a couple of years. If they tore out the entire section on dungeon building and put in some notes cribbed from "D&D For Dummies", I wouldn't really notice. I don't think that a few pages devoted to helping a beginning DM get the idea of what a D&D town is supposed to look like is going to kill us.