DMG2 blurb on Amazon. Attention Planescape fans!

[SKyOdin]

Honestly, this news does not make me happy. Part of it is that I simply don't like Sigil that much, and think the write-up in MotP should be enough. The other part of it is that I don't think a planar city is appropriate for a Paragon Tier home base.

My idea of a iconic Paragon Tier home base is Minas Tirith, the capital city of Gondor. A big metropolis with history, that stands in the shadow of a danger that can topple nations.

Part of it is that I think that the PCs' home base should be a place that is threatened by the forces the PCs' are fighting against. Sigil is a place that inherently can't be threatened by any kind of Paragon tier threat.

 

[Psion]

My idea of a iconic Paragon Tier home base is Minas Tirith, the capital city of Gondor. A big metropolis with history, that stands in the shadow of a danger that can topple nations.

I like the way you think.

 

[Shemeska]

what if it was inbetween worlds...so far out in the astral sea that is is a hub for world jumpers...

That was the core flavor niche for Sigil however: as a great mixing pot for visitors not just from across the planes, but from all the various material worlds.

That mixing of material plane visitors may be a casualty of 4e's cosmology changes sadly, since the default assumes a single world as "The World". Of course that runs counter to classical Sigil with people from Toril rubbing shoulders with those from Greyhawk, Ortho, Krynn, Cerilia, Mystara, many hundreds of unnamed worlds, and even a small ghetto from Athas.

Now since 4e's default is a completely different cosmology divorced from the 1e/2e/3e metasetting, there's no assumption of any of those existing, and the continuity from Planescape isn't assumed either. That's unfortunate, but it isn't a blatant retcon since it's a completely different setting that just happens to have a copy of Sigil in some reworked capacity. But it's going to be tricky how they end up utilizing Sigil, "The City of Doors" without broaching the cross-world aspect of the city. They might gloss it over, they might not approach it, they might have it there without naming any of the specific worlds they might or not might eventually include in 4e.

4e would probably best be served by embracing the world-mixing aspect of Sigil, just not assuming that all the worlds that it links necessarily share the same cosmology (either being from remote corners of the Astral Sea, or present in entirety different cosmologies altogether, though if I can touch upon on perhaps justified cynicism at this point, 4e seems hellbent on erasing any unique cosmologies, or perhaps unique settings depending on how you view it).

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I think they could still have the other worlds even with the 4e cosmology. The way I read MoTP is that each world exists in the same location in the cosmology. However, they don't interact with each-other, sorta like they are each alternative dimensions to each other. As such Sigil could serve as a way for these worlds to interact through its portals.

 

[Shemeska]

I think they could still have the other worlds even with the 4e cosmology. The way I read MoTP is that each world exists in the same location in the cosmology. However, they don't interact with each-other, sorta like they are each alternative dimensions to each other. As such Sigil could serve as a way for these worlds to interact through its portals.

The major problem with that cosmology is that it raises the spectre of multiple copies of major planar figures, mirror versions of planes, and indeed to coin the 4e design team's own words, it introduces "needless symmetry".

This is one of the major problems that the 3e FR cosmology introduced by having its own cosmology populated by many exact copies of Great Wheel planes that were totally unconnected to the Great Wheel, yet still attempting at times to retain a link to its retconned past by having portals to Sigil, the Great Wheel, etc. In 4e, they really could do better than return to that same problem again.

 

[catsclaw227]

I'd love a D&D 4e product that presented the "Immortal Tier" of levels 31 - 40!!!

Meh... For me this would seem like too much. If I can't bring myself to retire my PC after 30 levels and (likely) 2-3 years of gaming, then I am too attached to him. I am definitely DM more often, but when I play, I like trying new race/class combos.

 

[Wootz]

Yey. Hopefully It gives flavor text to sigil so I can describe it to my players in a way that isn't totally confusing.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

The major problem with that cosmology is that it raises the spectre of multiple copies of major planar figures, mirror versions of planes, and indeed to coin the 4e design team's own words, it introduces "needless symmetry".

Well I was thinking more along the lines of, Sigil would be the main interaction point seeing how it is the City of Doors. There would be one Sigil, one Elemental Chaos, etc.

So potentially you could take a portal to say Astral Sea and then take another portal to another world. It is just Sigil works best cause the amount of portals.

So there wouldn't be any mirrors since there be one plane and the only alternative-dimensions be the worlds. If you get what I mean

 

[Dire Bare]

The major problem with that cosmology is that it raises the spectre of multiple copies of major planar figures, mirror versions of planes, and indeed to coin the 4e design team's own words, it introduces "needless symmetry".

This is one of the major problems that the 3e FR cosmology introduced by having its own cosmology populated by many exact copies of Great Wheel planes that were totally unconnected to the Great Wheel, yet still attempting at times to retain a link to its retconned past by having portals to Sigil, the Great Wheel, etc. In 4e, they really could do better than return to that same problem again.

Needless symmetry? Nah.

4e mentions that there are different worlds such as "the world", Krynn, and Abeir-Toril. It mentions that each world has it's own set of astral dominions (outer planes), but never states that two (or more) worlds couldn't share access to certain astral dominions. In fact, it really doesn't go into detail at all about how Krynn might relate to Toril. Maybe they are alternate dimensions, or maybe you could fly a spaceship between the void to them, or maybe a spelljammer through the phlogiston . . .

Sure, Toril has Lolth living in her very own astral dominion, while in "the world" she has a layer in the Abyss and her different incarnations seem to have different power levels and slightly different backgrounds . . . how is this really any different from how it was in 2e?

Where does Tiamat/Takhisis live? In the Abyss? In Baator? Somewhere else? Is she the head of an evil pantheon or is she a devilish lackey and guardian of a door? (I know, I know, there are some fans who insist the two are completely separate beings that could get together over tea and discuss their favorite evil chromatic dragons).

Point is, Planescape (and Spelljammer before it) created a metasetting overtop of several similar yet distinct settings and never fully answered those questions . . . because, really, it doesn't matter!

But it is not a problem that 4e has that 3e and 2e didn't already have before.

Besides, if we can have an impossible city in an (almost) torus that has no outside and floats over an infinitely tall spire in the "center" of an infinite plane . . . there's room for Lolth being simultaneously a powerful demon, a goddess, and residing in different places all depending on one's point of view (or place of origin).

 

[Mokona]

Doesn't 4th edition explicitly state somewhere that other prime material planes (aka "World" or "Krynn", etc) are on the other side of the Astral Sea. Way out at sea as it were. But probably this side of the Far Realms.