TarionzCousin
Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
I would love to see more planar cities, such as Grenpoli and Dis, get some official love.
DMG2 blurb on Amazon. Attention Planescape fans!
- Thread starter M.L. Martin
- Start date
Shroomy
Adventurer
Yeah, I'm looking forward to the Hestavar article in this month's Dragon.
Psion
Adventurer
The fact that it is being positioned as a paragon-tier home base doesn't qualify?
Fallen Seraph
First Post
Sigil's original purpose in its creation was to serve as essentially a home base for the PC in Planescape campaigns. The only difference is stating that it works best at Paragon-tier which well is reasonable stance.
Think about some of the elements of Sigil it really shows how it has that purpose in mind. It has neutrality from all the Planar conflict (sure there is violence but you won't be struck down in a godly war). It is a source of trade and commerce. It is a source of information and knowledge. It is a place to find out about the rest of the Planes since well almost all inhabitants of the Planes have some presence in Sigil.
FourthBear
First Post
No. Why would it qualify it? What qualities does Union have that you think are necessary to a Paragon or Epic home base? What qualities does Sigil "pre-Unionization" have that would preclude it from being the DMG example of a Paragon tier home base?
And if this is all leading up to some significant changes to Sigil to make it more similar to Union, why aren't they apparent in the write-up in the Manual of the Planes? Heck, what *would* this Unionization look like, if it did happen?
If the sole distinguishing characteristic of Union that you're "mehing" here is that it was presented as a hub for epic-tier characters, then I guess calling the hub for paragon-tier characters "Union-lite" is about as appropriate as calling it "Saltmarsh deluxe". But that begs the question of "so what's to meh about?"
What were the distinguishing characteristics of Union that made it a suitable epic hub (besides being in the Epic Handbook)?
Psion
Adventurer
What's meh about that is that you are giving the city a level. That courts a Union-like approach to me. Danger, Will Robinson.
Fallen Seraph
First Post
It isn't like they are saying you can't enter Sigil if your below Paragon. Hell that would go against what WoTC has done with opening up the planes for lower levels. Like it isn't like if your above Heroic you can't enter Fallcrest.
It isn't an actual mechanical limit just more thematically/realistic level range for PCs to be in Sigil, and do alright.
FourthBear
First Post
I'm still interested in specific example of what Sigil being turned into Union-lite would look like. Particularly informed by the write-up of Sigil in the 4e Manual of the Planes. The primary problem with Union is that it was clearly created and centered around being a home base for epic characters and little else. It was run by a magical consortium, had a population of Epic characters, was policed by Epic town guardsman, et cetera. It had little history, character or flavor outside of what it took to serve its purpose.
Are people worried that suddenly all of Sigil's residents will become Paragon level threats or that all the shops will be converted into Adventure Mart? Because there's no indication of that in the Manual of Planes write-up. It specifically notes that there are still the "lowest of the low" and grubby inhabitants rubbing shoulders with very powerful, magical beings. Just like the old Sigil. The Lady of Pain still oversees the plane, the Factions history is still intact, the unpredictable and weird portals and their keys still pervade the place, the Wards are all in place, as is the physical description of the city. Heck, I could see a major complaint being that they haven't changed the place enough.
Are people worried that suddenly all of Sigil's residents will become Paragon level threats or that all the shops will be converted into Adventure Mart? Because there's no indication of that in the Manual of Planes write-up. It specifically notes that there are still the "lowest of the low" and grubby inhabitants rubbing shoulders with very powerful, magical beings. Just like the old Sigil. The Lady of Pain still oversees the plane, the Factions history is still intact, the unpredictable and weird portals and their keys still pervade the place, the Wards are all in place, as is the physical description of the city. Heck, I could see a major complaint being that they haven't changed the place enough.
Psion
Adventurer
Did I say anything indicating I thought it was a mechanical limit? Did Union have a mechanical limit?
In both cases, no. You are missing the point.
My concern here is that the implicit level will become a design approach driver, just like Epic Levels was for Union. And I can't help but think that will implicitly harm the feel of Sigil.
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