DMGenie - Masters of the Djinn Yahoo Group missing

[kingpaul]

Having said all that, scanning a book and distributing a PDF is illegal. (However, it is not "theft", or "stealing", or "piracy". It is "copyright infringement".

Alright, consider me properly edumacated on the proper terminology. (And I realize you aren't a lawyer).

Now, from your understanding of the law (still recognizing the fact that you aren't a lawyer), how do the courts look at the four mentioned crimes? IOW, which is the most severe?

 

[kingpaul]

Thats what gets me steamed.

As far as I know, and I'm not an agent of CMP, CMP's license to distribute datasets is not exclusive.

as far as etools, In the beginning there were lots of datapacks floating around and the programming for etools was simple, but CMP has made it more and more difficult to put things into system let alone share it. I happened to be on e-tools yahoo forum, and they even threatened to shut their own user community down. Lets kick those people who bought our stuff in the face.

Um, the programming was not as clean as it is now since CMP has taken over. Countless bugs have been ironed out and numerous features have been added in. The issue, once again, is the distribution of IP.

 

[kingpaul]

The only thing this is lost is the potential to stick it to the end consumer twice for the samething

But a dataset is not a book, they are different mediums.

 

[DonTadow]

Haven't you read Mynex's posts? He's stated that he uses DMGenie.

And what's wrong with that? Its been stated before that you can create the datasets for yourself. Its the distribution that's the issue

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2556886&postcount=33

I, for one, have not been angry. I do not use DMGenie, its true, but I don't recall ever saying that it was inferior. And, as I stated above, Mynex himself has stated that he uses DMGenie. The issue towards the DMGenie community you were discussing in the other thread was the fact that WotC's IP was being distributed without permission.

I've already given the link to Mynex's post on this comment. Now, let me post mine:

I had nothing to do with Yahoo!'s decision to close down that group or to delete the owner's account

The only piece of the group that I recall being discussed was the distribution of WotC's IP.

I have read the statement, and though its some great dancing, he doesnt not flatout deny it. There are several similiar dancing statements above. And honestly, if their policy is preventing the distrubtion of ip, why would they care if someone says it was them or not. From their statements, it would be like someone accusing you of saving a baby from a fire or stopping a theift ring.

The problem I have with the datasets is that it is like someone selling premium air, but only allowing you to buy air from them. It's jut something wrong to sell something that you are already have access to and that someone with scripting knowlwedge would be glad for you to do freely.

The problem is not creating the datasets it is sharing them with friends which has been the problem. It was only a few days ago i was on the etools forum and someone from cmg threatened to shut their own community forum down. Am I to believe that if they woulddo this to their own community they are beyond shutting down a rival program's community website.

Which brings me to something i find odd? Etools and dmgenie does the same thing? Outside of seeing what the competition is doing, am i to believe that someone whom works for cmp really uses dmgenie especially considering the two are not compatible (at least not without a script that would essentially violate etools ip) . Is this not hte equivelent of the CEO of Mcdonalds telling the media he enjoys a good Burger King burger.

 

[kingpaul]

This is about making scripts of classes and feats based on published books to share with other owners of the books and the program whom don't have scripting capabilities.

Which is, once again, distributing the IP.

Yahoo closed the forum soley on word of mouth as they had no idea how to check if there was ip in the scripts considering you'd have to have an understanding of programming to go through each one.

Really? Do you have a link stating that Yahoo closed a group without any thing to go on but a request? I'd like to see that.

Don't kid yourself. This is every bit about big companies preventing innovation in the name of profit.

So, in your opinion, a company shouldn't care if their IP is being distributed without their authorization?

Scriptiing easier in e-tools? Obviously never used anything else.

I believe he was referring to the fact that its easier now in eTools than it once was. I don't believe he was making a comparison to other CharGens.

 

[kingpaul]

From their statements, it would be like someone accusing you of saving a baby from a fire or stopping a theift ring.

I'm honestly not understanding your statement here.

The problem I have with the datasets is that it is like someone selling premium air, but only allowing you to buy air from them. It's jut something wrong to sell something that you are already have access to and that someone with scripting knowlwedge would be glad for you to do freely.

So you think its wrong to charge for person A to sell you something they did?

And once again, we come back to the distribution of IP.

The problem is not creating the datasets it is sharing them with friends which has been the problem. It was only a few days ago i was on the etools forum and someone from cmg threatened to shut their own community forum down. Am I to believe that if they woulddo this to their own community they are beyond shutting down a rival program's community website.

Alright, you've now stated that sharing the datasets is the problem, which is correct.

Now, its CMP, not CMG. CMG is Creative Mountain Games, and I don't think they have any stake in this discussion (but I could be wrong).

I don't know what forum you're talking about. The only CMP forums I'm aware of the ones on their website: http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/ Which one are you referring to?

Which brings me to something i find odd? Etools and dmgenie does the same thing? Outside of seeing what the competition is doing, am i to believe that someone whom works for cmp really uses dmgenie especially considering the two are not compatible (at least not without a script that would essentially violate etools ip) . Is this not hte equivelent of the CEO of Mcdonalds telling the media he enjoys a good Burger King burger.

I don't know Mynex's gaming habits, but he has stated for a while now on the CMP forums when questions come up for comparison, that he uses DMGenie.

 

[DonTadow]

Which is, once again, distributing the IP.

Really? Do you have a link stating that Yahoo closed a group without any thing to go on but a request? I'd like to see that.

So, in your opinion, a company shouldn't care if their IP is being distributed without their authorization?

I believe he was referring to the fact that its easier now in eTools than it once was. I don't believe he was making a comparison to other CharGens.

All I have is the person whom owned the forum and his blog. I dont think he has a reason to lie.

Again, I"m not going to get in on what is ip and what is not. I and a million other people dont believe it is so. There's little difference between it and cliff notes or a literary review. Its murky legal area and wont' be solved for sometme. What is IP what isnt IP. when its comfy its profitable its IP, when its not its not IP. You can lend it to a friend but not to friends on the internet. I can write a review and quote for 100s but can't can't make notes for 10 or 20. I can't write a program that is majroity my own creation inspired by another work? Problem is, iin every case that rejects the concept of IP you find it is because previous precedents.

 

[DonTadow]

I'm honestly not understanding your statement here.

So you think its wrong to charge for person A to sell you something they did?

And once again, we come back to the distribution of IP.

Alright, you've now stated that sharing the datasets is the problem, which is correct.

Now, its CMP, not CMG. CMG is Creative Mountain Games, and I don't think they have any stake in this discussion (but I could be wrong).

I don't know what forum you're talking about. The only CMP forums I'm aware of the ones on their website: http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/ Which one are you referring to?

I don't know Mynex's gaming habits, but he has stated for a while now on the CMP forums when questions come up for comparison, that he uses DMGenie.

In other words, CMP and its employees, at least on enworld, have made a big stench about stopping the spread of others IP. Well the forum shutting down should be seen as a victory by them. However, they seem offended to be accused of having something to do with it. Which is ironic considering techincally I"m accusing htem of doing what they would deem " a good deed".

Etools had a forum on yahoo that was threatened to be shut down only days before the masters of the djinn shut down. Yahoo is also the home of the masters of the djinn forum.

What I think is wrong, and every american should, is eliminating competition. Drives up prices and prevents creativity.
sorry meant cmp. CMG are some cool peeps with good products.

 

[Mynex]

Enough

1. I wasn't referring to international IP laws, if I was, I would have said "International IP Laws" - Tadow and myself are both in the US, so I'm going by US IP laws.

2. I didn't 'rat fink' out the DM Genie Y! Group. Period. I didn't report them to Y!, the IP isn't mine, I'm not the "IP Police in full riot gear" and I really, really don't give a rat's ass about it.

3. I spoke up about IP distribution in a factual manner, and I've been attacked, accused, slandered for it, personally and my company. And where are the mods for this? No where to be found. Which tells me that EN World is still anti-CMP for whatever reason. In light of that, I no longer feel the need to 'restrain my comments'.

4. In the vein of not restraining my comments, if you share IP material with the express intent of not supporting the company that produces it, you're a thief. that's MY opinion. And if you don't like it, tough . It's _MY_ opinion.

5. Nathan (DonTadow) has made insinuations and accusation against CMP, that we have a hidden agenda, that we produce shoddy material, that we're out to screw the gamer... and his story has changed each time I present logic that's not the case... arguing logic vs idiocy is pointless. And let me be clear so there's no misunderstanding, _I_ think, in my _OPINION_ that you're a freakin troll. Further, you can't argue logically that you're in the right, because you know you're in the wrong, that you have an indefensible position, so instead of shutting the hell up, you continue to talk out of your ass and try to make this my or CMP's fault.

Bad news for ya buddy, you're the idiot that made a post on a public forum, where the publisher of the IP DOES read, that the Y! group that got shut down was a good place to get IP material. Granted, you didn't say 'IP', but go back and read your own freaking post dumbass. YOU told a publisher (or several) that their IP material was being distributed _illegally in the US_ on a Y! Group.

so instead of dropping the subject, you try to make it someone else's fault? pathetic AND stupid.

6. Yes, I use DM Genie. I also use DM's Familiar, Redblade, and a few others. Why? Because there is not _one_ program that oes everything _I_ as a _GM_ need it to do. Yet.

Not to mention, competetion breeds innovation. I'm all for there being a ton of character generators, a ton of campaign management utilities, and a ton of >insert type here< utilities... the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned... why? Because I _know_ there is not one single tool that is to every person's liking. Some like their information presented X way, some prefer Y way, and still others prefer A, B, & Z ways... That's called reality.

I also come from an Open Source background (hello! 3 years donated to working on the Open Source PCGen project!). I'm all for information being shared, being able to be used between programs, and the like... However, I do NOT accept that distribution of IP is something that _SHOULD_ be done. I do NOT accept the argument that "I bought the book, the data should be free"...

Why?

Because data sets take time to create. They take time to maintain. And that time is paid for by CMP to it's contractors. You aren't paing for the freaking information, you're paying for the work that went into their creation and maintence. So don't give me any sorry ass argument about content being the same and you should get it for free... that's crap, it's a crap argument, and you damned well know it.

You stated that you _never_ ecouraged anyone to break the law... !!! You did, directly, state that you were going to tell your friends to leave up their file sharing programs to distribute CMP's data files.

You are not only arguing in the wrong, you are a liar.

Enough already. I'm sick of YOUR holier than thou attitude towards me and CMP. I've had a lot of _publishers_ tell me this argument isn't worth it... this _specific_ thread (and the other one) wasn't worth it... that basically they don't participate in these discussions because of idiots like you.

I despise leaving an argument unfinished... it rankles me... but ya know what? your oblivious, and obvious stupidity in the face of straight up logical arguments is exactly why I am going to leave this argument.

So go ahead and say you've 'won the fight for the little man'.

And watch as software, of all varieties, gets stricter and stricter controls and more and better security processes. All because of jackasses like yourself.

And you've ensured, and proven to me, that EN World is no place for CMP. That to be treated with respect and politeness is too much to be asked for as a company around here by some people.
.

 

[azhrei_fje]

Now, from your understanding of the law (still recognizing the fact that you aren't a lawyer), how do the courts look at the four mentioned crimes? IOW, which is the most severe?

Hmm, good question, King. I hadn't really thought about it.

Right now, the pendulum is swinging towards prosecuting IP infringement more severely than theft. The U.S. courts just put the CEO of Enron in jail for 25 years (although he's made a motion to be released pending his appeal, expected to take 12 months to begin). But he's being made an example.

A thief can rob a store at gunpoint (armed robbery) and do at least 5 years (in Florida, where I live) even if no one is hurt and the robbery fails. But someone who faxes a page out of book to a friend and gets the fax number wrong, sending the fax to the publisher/author (!), could be sentenced to federal prison for 10 years or more!

Granted, it's unlikely that faxing a single page would cause a judge to sentence jail time. But that's part of the problem with the IP laws in the U.S. -- they are SO up to interpretation by the courts that they are practically useless.

I will take a look over the next few days and see what's currently happening in this regard. If this thread is still alive, I'll post my findings. I don't have a Pacer account, but I have friends who are lawyers (hmm, don't take that wrong! :\) and they can check for me.

Of course, if they look something up and provide it to me, is that IP infringement? Shouldn't I have to pay to look it up myself? <big grin!>