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DMGenie - Masters of the Djinn Yahoo Group missing

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I'm no lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but it sure sounds like KingPaul sees this subject matter in a very black & white frame of mind.

Are the GMs in question on these PbPs disseminating the closed-content material to the players?

I suppose some of them could be. Do the mods here check every post of every PbP thread? If not, are they being negligent? For example, there is no OGC in City of the Spider Queen but I know I've seen CotSQ PbP threads out there. Are we to begin policing these threads as well? Heck, go the WotC website right now and search for CoTSQ and you will find one thread dedicated to nothing but converting the non-OGC NPCS from the adventure to the 3.5 ruleset. Ironic, isn't it, that you and I are having an IP discussion (mainly about WotC I presumed) and yet there is IP infringement right on their own site. Sinners...
 

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btw, on a small side note, my lurking ways are failing me as I finally broke the century mark in posts. I'm beginning to get nervous...
 

rom90125 said:
I'm no lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but it sure sounds like KingPaul sees this subject matter in a very black & white frame of mind.
I'm not a lawyer either. But I do see IP distribution in black and white; if you're not the owner or have the owners's permission, then distributing their IP not a good thing.
rom90125 said:
I suppose some of them could be.
And the wholesale distribution of IP is copyright infringement. And distirbuting datasets of IP material without the IP owner's permission is copyright infringement.
 

kingpaul said:
And the wholesale distribution of IP is copyright infringement. And distirbuting datasets of IP material without the IP owner's permission is copyright infringement.

OK, but that still doesn't answer the questions I presented in my post regarding CotSQ and the apparent IP infringement occuring in their own forums. Are you attempting to be coy with me? Silly... Anyway, here is the thread I mentioned. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=255217
Take a look and let me know if this is infringement and if you think we should notify WotC.

Edit: Oh and to save you a few posts, it clearly states in CotSQ that no part of this game product contains OGC. That should answer your next post...
 
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rom90125 said:
OK, but that still doesn't answer the questions I presented in my post regarding CotSQ and the apparent IP infringement occuring in their own forums. Are you attempting to be coy with me? Silly... Anyway, here is the thread I mentioned. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=255217
Take a look and let me know if this is infringement and if you think we should notify WotC.

Edit: Oh and to save you a few posts, it clearly states in CotSQ that no part of this game product contains OGC. That should answer your next post...

See, there's one critical difference here. The WotC forums are _theirs_. theycan discuss, distribute, change, charge for, give for free anything of _their_ material they want to in any format they want to.

WotC doesn't care about Joe GM and his gaming crew swapping stuff back and forth between each other.... What they care about is wholesale sharing of their material.

See the whole issue over IP is ownership... they _HAVE_ to protect their IP or they lose legal protections over it.... So are they are on a witch hunt? Nope... but if someone (i.e. website, Y! Group, etc) hits their radar, then they'll do something about it... are they out aggressively searching for this stuff? I'm sure they are from time to time... but ya know what? They would much rather spend their time writing new material...

Oh, wait.. saying all that, as logical as it is, make me a 'WotC lapdog' doesn't it?

Oh well... guess I am then... damn that logic thing! ;)
 

Mynex said:
But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Seems that a lot of unacceptable behaviour is allowed when it's directed at us, so I should be used to it by now.

This happens to you guys a lot? My first thought on counteracting this kind of thing would be to examine what the differences are between you and the groups that aren’t taking all this guff.

Don’t get used to it… Correct it and then you’ll be able to make more money. ;)

Sam
 

kingpaul said:
So you are condoning and encouraging the distribution of IP?

As I asked in that other thread, what’s IP and what isn’t?

Let’s say I buy the Complete Book of Cheese and I’m discussing it with another player named Matt. I mention that 123 feats(that would be pretty cheesy) can be found therein. Matt wants to know what they are so I list them on a sheet of paper and give it to him.

Is this distribution of IP? If so, is it even outside of fair use?

OK, so let’s say this discussion is happening online and I send Matt this list by e-mail.

Once again, is this a violation of copyright? I still don’t think so.

Now let’s say there’s about a dozen other players curious about the cheesy feats, so I list the feat names in an online database with a web interface.

IP violation?

Say I enter the prerequisites for these feats also.

IP violation? I still don’t believe so.

Now what’s the difference between what I’ve just described and creating a “dataset” for some program where feats can be tacked onto a character like ornaments on a Christmas tree?

Sam
 

Mynex said:
See the whole issue over IP is ownership... they _HAVE_ to protect their IP or they lose legal protections over it....

This isn't entirely accurate.

They have to jealously protect their trademarks, but there's nothing anyone can do that would cause them to lose their copyrights.

Sam
 

The point of this thread is what happened to the masters of the djinn site. I didn't bring up IP or the right to IP. I'd love to keep things to the thread topic. Just like hte last topic. The guy asked a question about e-tools and I told him my opinion and alternatives. The argument always happens when someone from CMP (which it usually is) comes onto the thread preaching about how they dont like to see others ips taken for granted and the law and yada yada.

The fact that CMP is even on this thread further makes me more suspcious. What does CMP have to do with DM genie. Last i heard you wern't a fan of the program.

If you were a fan of masters of the djinn and you're on this thread, you obviously are wondering what happened to it. My point is that first, we had the thread about dmgenie and the user forums, two days later, after CMP raised a ruckus about how wrong it is, the guy loses his emails, forums and other yahoo information.

I slammed CMP in the last thread because I believe you make profit off of easily created items with the datapacks. HOwever, this thread is about the actions I believe you guys did to have the yahoo group shut down (which you have not denyed). If this was a crime youd be the first suspects, simply because of the irate nature of your remarks only a month ago. You showed anger towards the community and it was noted a few times that you were quite upset. Plus, again, you're on a forum about a program you also stated was inferior to your own, that you do not like. SUre ,it could be just a big coinecodence. But its a heck of a one. Plus agin reading your remarks, it doesnt sound like you're denying any involvement. Far from the contrary, your remarks on here are more of a "good ridance i'm glad thats gone , they were criminals on there". Looking back on the thread, theres not one remark showing that you have any interest in what happened to the forum only to see how people reacted that it was gone and comment about how bad it was anyway.

BTW, I don't hide my name, address, zip its all in whois under my name of chrystaria. This IP i use is unmasked on purpose. I also own detroitwriter.com and several other business ventures. As a matter of fact, you can go there and read my whole resume. as well as my news clips, i am glad you are taking such an interest in my life.

As far as libel and slander, now whose accusing? I've been a journalist for 10 years, and know the book pretty easily. I can clearly say my opinions about so long as it is sttated they are my opinions and my opinions are dereived from several previously noted activities that i personaly found suspicious. I believe hte people whom work for CMP and commented their dislikes about the forum in the previous thread had something to do with the shutdown based on these suspiciouns.
 

This is an amusing thread. :) And this is a huge post. If you don't care about intellectual property law, skip it. But if you do continue reading, be aware that I'm not trying to be accurate in general, only as it applies to this thread.

First, if anyone reading this is a lawyer and wants to clarify, please do; IANAL, but I've read a lot about IP and I think I grasp most of it, although probably not the detailed nuances. Here are the categories I see:

1. Trademarks. If someone uses a trademark and gives credit to the owner, there is no infringement. This is why you'll see all kinds of advertising that mentions the trademark ownership of competing products. There are exceptions to this; it's based on dilution of product identity. And no, that's not exactly the same as WotC with their beholders or yuan-ti.

2. Patents. A patent is exclusive authority to produce, or to control production of, a system, technique, process, method, ... A patent is used to protect a method of accomplishing something. They are relatively short-lived (17 or more years, depending on the type of patent; used to be flat 17 years, but that's changed).

3. Copyrights. They protect the expression of an idea, NOT the idea itself. So, if I publish an item from the previous category (patents), I can copyright that publication, but not the system, technique, process, etc. Because only the expression is protected, there are gray areas. For example, the WotC XP table would be protected: font, type size, column layout, etc. Any reasonable judge would extrapolate and rule that changing only those items would still constitute a violation. However, a formula that generates the same table of numbers may or may not be a violation. A formula can only be covered by a patent, and WotC doesn't have a patent on their game system (note the use of the word "system").

4. Trade secrets. These can be anything that would normally fall under #2 or #3, but the creator considers keeping them secret to be more beneficial in the market than releasing the information. For example, instead of filing a patent and trying to enforce it, it might be easier to keep it secret. There's a long discussion about whether that's practical or not. But this thread isn't about trade secrets, so I'm not going into it.

It's very important that #2 and #3 be clear: you cannot "copyright" a way to do something, and you cannot "patent" a book.

Fair use in the U.S. is based on the idea that writers and journalists will want to be able to quote other written works. This is the whole "standing on the shoulders of giants" philosophy. So the "fair use doctrine" was established to allow such things. However, the framers of the Constitution couldn't envision the electronic world we live in and Congress (opposite of "Progress"?) dreamed up their own definitions. That's one of the reasons we have such a mess on our hands: our congressmen react to lobbyists, not to technical experts who represent the views of the citizens.

Having said all that, scanning a book and distributing a PDF is illegal. (However, it is not "theft", or "stealing", or "piracy". It is "copyright infringement". Those first three terms all have specific meanings and anyone who uses them to refer to illegal distribution of intellectual property doesn't understand the proper use of the words. IMHO, of course. :)) It was not, at the time our country's laws were written, feasible to photocopy a book or scan an entire document. They weren't concerned about such things; they were concerned that a writer wouldn't quote large sections of text. This is why the law doesn't say how much can be copied and still be within the "fair use" statute. Note that copying something for your own use is still illegal! The courts, if you were prosecuted, would consider many details, including but not limited to, profit motive, amount copied, and breadth of distribution.

All of the above leaves out one key point: laws are made for the protection of citizens. One of the biggest mistakes (again, IMHO) this country ever made was to grant corporations the legal status of an individual. This significantly murkied the water in a number of ways, and was NOT the way the Constitution had originally been conceived.

Because laws are made to guide citizens in ethical conduct (what are laws except an implementation of morality and ethics by a group of people known as "government"?), they can and do change. To argue that some particular act is illegal and the perpetrator is a criminal is false. Someone who commits an illegal act is a suspect and is alleged to have committed a crime, but they are not a criminal until convicted. But laws change because of court decisions -- look at how the pendulum is swinging in Roe vs. Wade right now.

We even have a phrase to represent the kind of activity that invites prosecution: civil disobedience. This is when a citizen purposefully disobeys a law and incurs the wrath of the government, or other body, in order to point out how the law is flawed. For example, see this link http://www.papersplease.org/gilmore/ if you'd like to read about John Gilmore, an individual who decided that he wanted to travel to Washington, DC, to visit his congressman, but refused to show identification to board the airplane leaving San Francisco. He wasn't allowed to board. His constitutional right to meet with his legislative representative was infringed, as well as his guarantee against illegal search and seizure. In addition, he was arrested for breaking a law that the Transportation Security Administration refused to reveal to him ("You broke a law, but we can't tell you what it is -- national security"!). It has been said that the first thing a tyrant does is institute policies "for the safety of the population". Keep your eye on New Orleans -- it'll be interesting to see if people are forced to evacuate and how the government handles those that refuse.

Another example is Philip Zimmerman, author of the PGP encryption software. The government claimed his software was a "munition" (technically, encryption devices are munitions, and export to a non-allied country is considered treason). So they forced him to shut down his web site where the code resided. His solution? He wrote a book and asked the government for clearance to export it. The executive branch gave him the thumbs-up. The contents of the book? The complete source code to the software! The book was even printed without page numbers or headers/footers, specifically so that it could be easily scanned and OCR'd. Once the Justice Department learned of it, they eventually dropped the case. But only AFTER Phil had spent hundreds of thousands of his own dollars to defend himself! (I bought a copy of said book, but can't find it on my shelf right now -- I probably tossed it out when I moved a couple years ago.)

All of that shows that individuals can, and SHOULD, push the limits of the law. And while it's not a valid argument to say, "everyone else is doing it, so I can too!", it is also true that if everyone else IS doing it, the law is likely to change. :)

To sum up: is it illegal to scan a book into a PDF, even for your own use? Yes. Is it illegal to scan a single page (or two) from a book for your own use? Probably not. (But you can be sued for anything, and usually the money wins. No, it's not fair, but our laws are not designed to be fair -- and don't let anyone convince you otherwise.) Is it illegal to discuss with someone else the content of the book? No. Is it illegal to give a list of chapter titles to someone else? Probably not. Is it illegal to read the entire book out loud and have your friend listen to it on the other end of the phone? Probably not. Is it illegal for said friend to record the book while you speak it? Yes.

As I mentioned earlier, IANAL. And if you use this text as legal advice, you're an idiot. :cool: My effort to instruct was probably in vain; I've found most people don't take an interest in their own welfare. Heck, why else would voter turnout be so low in this country? (But I'll bet the voters turn out in droves in 2008, eh?!)

If I've made a fool of myself with this post, please tell the world about it and post a correction. :\ I for one would really like to know if I have this wrong...
 

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