DM's Delema: To kill or not to kill

Wadash said:
Since it seems the party is being hunted by two different groups (the shadow/sidhe and the inquisition) how about just running the encounters in opposite order?

The Inquisition locates the PC's, captures them and strips them of their weapons (let them keep armor though) - They are suspicious, but can't quite believe the PC's are responsible and want the PC's for questioning.
Have them be as fair as possible, so that the PC's will agree to surrender without a fight.

Then have the shadowmen attack (remember to use all their abilities), let the PC's see how dangerous they are, but unable to do anything (due to being unarmed and possible bound). when the fight starts to go against the inquisition, let the inquisition accept the help the PC's have probably been offering since the fight started.

The PC's may win this or they may not - either way you get some benefits from this solution:
1. The forces of good (inquisition) are as active as the forces of evil (shadowmen)
2. The PC's do not feel like they are being rescued!
3. The PC's feel like heroes - whether others agree is a different story, the inquisition might still hold a grudge for getting them in the mess in the first place.


Nice one.

Read and reread HeapThaumaturgist's post, and I'll add one little piece of advice on my own:

Sometimes the illusion of choice is as satisfying to the players as a real choice is. Don't do it all the time, but if you need a scene to play out in a certain way to preserve the integrity of the campaign, you can usually set it up like Percivellian's solution and have the players feel like their choices matter.

On a very simple level, magicians use this trick all the time. For example, by asking you to pick a card but not telling you ahead of time whether that's the card you're going to keep, or the card that stays on the table.

Ben
 

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fuindordm said:
Nice one.

Read and reread HeapThaumaturgist's post, and I'll add one little piece of advice on my own:

Sometimes the illusion of choice is as satisfying to the players as a real choice is. Don't do it all the time, but if you need a scene to play out in a certain way to preserve the integrity of the campaign, you can usually set it up like Percivellian's solution and have the players feel like their choices matter.

On a very simple level, magicians use this trick all the time. For example, by asking you to pick a card but not telling you ahead of time whether that's the card you're going to keep, or the card that stays on the table.

Ben
Excellent analogy, fuindordm! *applauds*

Though HeapThaumaturgist posted an excellent idea, I am unfortunately and inexcusably biased toward Percivellian's response. I've been in the same situation as that ranger and have been forced to sacrifice a character just because the DM (by his choice and his choice alone) put my character in that situation. Also, Percivellian gives multiple "options" for the players that still all result in the same thing eventually–though they don't have to know that. :p
 

genshou said:
Excellent analogy, fuindordm! *applauds*

Though HeapThaumaturgist posted an excellent idea, I am unfortunately and inexcusably biased toward Percivellian's response. I've been in the same situation as that ranger and have been forced to sacrifice a character just because the DM (by his choice and his choice alone) put my character in that situation. Also, Percivellian gives multiple "options" for the players that still all result in the same thing eventually–though they don't have to know that. :p

Thanks, it's a trick that's saved my DM credibility on numerous occasions. :-)

Ben
 

Argonel said:
If it is the TPK that you expect you can gauge their response, apologize for the TPK and either retcon it so they do destroy the golem or start a fresh game.

No matter what, I argue strongly that there should never be "do-overs".
 

the Jester said:
No matter what, I argue strongly that there should never be "do-overs".
I'm with the Jester on this one. "Do-overs" strain suspension of disbelief.

Ugh, I hate typing out that phrase. Can we as EN Worlders refer to that from now on as SSOD? I'm going to start to.

You would to well to either TPK without mercy or go with plans outlined by HeapThaumaturgist or Percivellian. But never ever a "do-over", no no no.
 

I agree do-overs are not a good thing, but depending on the composition of the group and how attached they are to there characters it could be considered. We have to keep in mind that this is a game that people play for fun. With my group what happens happens and about 80% of the group died about 3 sessions ago. The survivors hired fresh faces and they are continuing and deling with the poor reputation they have acquired. The world goes on, even if the party doesn't. While this style works for me and my players it may not work for other people.
 

Is it possible that 8th-10th level characters will be able to escape? Not all of them, but with Teleport available, four or five of them might get a breather. Then they'll have a chance to figure out what to do (ie. how to hide until the bad guys catch up with them). But, of course, the Inquisition will jump them, and that could be quite interesting. From the frying pan into the fire, as it were.
 

First, sorry for taking so long to replies. I’ve been reading, but haven’t had a chance to reply until now.

Second, I’ve pulled my wife into to this discussion. She is a player, but is willing to put blinders on and play dumb later, to help me make the right choices now. If Janta posts, then she’ll have in-game insight.

Just to clarify, the PCs are not trapped between the golem and the shadowmen, but rather in the wilderness. The shadowmen can track the PCs magically locate object. I am perhaps playing the “Locate Object” rules sort of seat of the pants, assuming it will work. I'll review those rules and be sure to run that correctly. I haven’t given a lot of thought to running this “correctly” but now perhaps I should.

Thanks for everyone's post and considered thoughts, especial HeapThaumaturgist's direct critical review. I really do value this game and my players—they smart and funny. Tone-wise, this is a beer and pretzels game in short sessions of a Thursday, so a grim TPK is not really want I want.

HeapThaumaturgist’s view was exactly what I needed. I particularly love the suggestion about leaving the engineering notes--I'd wished I'd have though of that at the correct time, and I know where I can retrofit it in. (A diary I've been looking for a chance to drop, with a bunch of back story.)

I am also considering Percivellian’s suggesting about bring the Inquisition to the rescue. I’d envisioned a show-down between an out-of-control Inquisition and the PCs, which both particular PCs and Inquisitors build up with minor snipings. Perhaps this is better, since my PCs view of this “Church of Ao” is overwhelming negative.

And I like Wadash’s variant, with the inquisition as unsure agents first against and later for the PCs. It could work. And the horns Ideal would work, especially since I’d already established that the Sidhe use trumpets to communicate.

What I am really struggling to avoid is a sense of helpless or uselessness in my players. This has been alluded to in the ‘do over’ vs. suspension of disbelief discussion by GenShou. Obviously, killing them in an overwhelming fight will give them a feeling of helplessness. But at the same time, if I continually adjust every fight to be just challenging enough, do I not over time teach my players that no matter what they choose, I’ll take make a fair, winnable fight? Choose the moral high ground or don’t, you get a safe enough encounter.

Assuming I take Percivellian’s advice, the PCs can’t really make an unsafe choice. Either they rebuke the Queen and the Inquisition saves their bacon, or they ally themselves with the Queen and she saves them. I like the idea of awarding the “good” choice, but then shouldn’t there be a price to pay for it? I suppose if the PCs take the moral low ground, then the Inquisition sees it, and then the PCs will have to contend with them later, to some degree.

I am thinking I'll shift the fey queen's attitude a bit, so perhaps she'll be a little easier to persuade, something between the absolutes she’s pursuing now. If the PCs could get her only to stand aside, they’d stand a fair chance.

I do not want a total party kill. I am not trying to punish my PCs for not thinking of my solution to the golem problem. And to be fair, I unintentionally set my players up for failure by consistently having a boss-monster at the end of each adventure, just to know they’re done. I’d thought I’d been careful to describe this creature is particularly big, but that could easily be read as just simple tension-building.

Once again, thanks one and all, even the one-liners. :-).
 

asdel said:
[snippety snip snip]
Once again, thanks one and all, even the one-liners. :-).
*humbly bows* Let me say, both for myself and for everyone else participating in this thread, that you are very welcome and we're all glad to help. We'll be hoping to hear tell of an outcome that makes everyone happy come end of your next gaming session. :)
 

asdel said:
Just to clarify, the PCs are not trapped between the golem and the shadowmen, but rather in the wilderness. The shadowmen can track the PCs magically locate object. I am perhaps playing the “Locate Object” rules sort of seat of the pants, assuming it will work. I'll review those rules and be sure to run that correctly. I haven’t given a lot of thought to running this “correctly” but now perhaps I should.
Here's your problem. Locate object has a range of only 400ft +40ft/level. And it's blocked by a bunch of stuff. While it will work to pin down a location, it's not a general track-all solution.
 

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